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d6 the future of d20?
- Thread starter SemperJase
- Start date
the skill system is a prime example, the old star wars game was using a universal "d6 roll + modifier vs DC" just like "d20 roll + modifier vs DC"Ranger REG said:
Mind you, i just bought the D6 adventures hard-back today and i'm not all that impressed. It's a chaotic bit of mish-mash jumbled into the one book.
IMHO if i'd never played D6 previously it would take me a while to work out how to make a PC let alone GM a game.
malladin
Explorer
I really did not like the D6 system. My numeracy is pretty poor and adding up those numbers became excruciating once my character actually got good at something.
The Storyteller system was another that suffered from the bucket-full o'dice problem (especially for anyone who played old-style aberrant), but at least I didn't have to do instant sums all the time.
I really like the simplicity of D20 as a dice mechanic, but I somethimes find it a bit random.
One of the best dice mechanics IMO was the 7th sea roll/keep system. To explain why I think I need to into a bit more depth...
nearly all systems seem to be based on some way of adding together a Stat and a Skill. In D20 system the Stat (Ab Socre) counts for relatively little compared to the skill (this is best IMO as it makes the skill worth spending points on andyou can be good at something without having to have a good 'stat' for it). The problem is that every other Ab score point is effectively useless. The Storyteller system had equal weighting on the Stat (attributes in this system) and Skills (Abilities), which gets around the problem of the ability scores in D20, but means that players nearly always develop the stat ahead of the skill (which I don't like). Out of these two I'd choose D20. The 7th sea system, onthe other hand gave you a number of dice equal to your total pool (stat + skill), but let you 'keep' as many as your stat. Whilst this may seem like it puts the weighting on the stat rather than the skill, in game play it became obvious that this wasin reality the other way round. For the same amount of charcter points in the game you could have 3 points in a Stat and no skill points OR 2 points in the stat and 5 skill points (out of five). Rolling seven dice and keeping the best two is much more likely to give you a better result than simply rolling 3 dice.
Anyway that's my thoughts on dice mechanics. The other side of the argument is the class/level system of D20. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and neither makes me entirely happy. Personally this used to be the biggest problem I had with old 1st/2nd ed AD&D, but I think D20 comes to a good compomise with its multiclasing system, and D20M/Grim tales this becomes so that problems with the class system (lack of flexibility in achieving your chosen character concept) almost disappears. The compromise on the other side of the equasion is where your character class merely restricts how easily you can spend points in different areas (the CODA system of the new LotR and even, to a lesser extent, the Storyteller system are good examples of this) adding the strong character flavour of a class system and controls to abuse that a points based character creation system is open to. For me, levels are no big problem - I can quite happily take them or leave them, but I can see why some people like them and others don't. I suppose the ideal system would allow you the option, letting the GM choose whether you spend your character points freely as they are gained, or that XP must be spent in lumps as you gain levels, with some or all of your spend being dictated by a class.
So that's my ideal system. It's probably not everbody's. The main comercial advantage of D20, though (over the D6 system, to get back to the point) is the little messy bits that other RPGs would avoid, like feats and prestige classes. Love them or hate them, whenever you produce a D20 product, you can always add in some crunch in terms of new PrCs or feats, thus appealing to a wider market. The $500 basic charge for a licence will be the biggest problem that WEG will suffer from. D20 has done so well (even drawing old cynics like me back to D&D after years of hating it after 2nd ed) because there's so much 3rd part stuff out there. Some of it fantastic, some of it downright s***e, but you can always find soemthing to fit with what you want to do. Unearthed Arcana kind of sums this up for me, lots of options to capture the individual feel you want. UA was a great product because it put everything together in one place (and gave it an official stamp of approval), but nearly everything there already existed in other 3rd party products.
that's a bit of a random waffle on the general subject metter, but hopefully you can get what I'm on about
Cheerio,
Ben
The Storyteller system was another that suffered from the bucket-full o'dice problem (especially for anyone who played old-style aberrant), but at least I didn't have to do instant sums all the time.
I really like the simplicity of D20 as a dice mechanic, but I somethimes find it a bit random.
One of the best dice mechanics IMO was the 7th sea roll/keep system. To explain why I think I need to into a bit more depth...
nearly all systems seem to be based on some way of adding together a Stat and a Skill. In D20 system the Stat (Ab Socre) counts for relatively little compared to the skill (this is best IMO as it makes the skill worth spending points on andyou can be good at something without having to have a good 'stat' for it). The problem is that every other Ab score point is effectively useless. The Storyteller system had equal weighting on the Stat (attributes in this system) and Skills (Abilities), which gets around the problem of the ability scores in D20, but means that players nearly always develop the stat ahead of the skill (which I don't like). Out of these two I'd choose D20. The 7th sea system, onthe other hand gave you a number of dice equal to your total pool (stat + skill), but let you 'keep' as many as your stat. Whilst this may seem like it puts the weighting on the stat rather than the skill, in game play it became obvious that this wasin reality the other way round. For the same amount of charcter points in the game you could have 3 points in a Stat and no skill points OR 2 points in the stat and 5 skill points (out of five). Rolling seven dice and keeping the best two is much more likely to give you a better result than simply rolling 3 dice.
Anyway that's my thoughts on dice mechanics. The other side of the argument is the class/level system of D20. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and neither makes me entirely happy. Personally this used to be the biggest problem I had with old 1st/2nd ed AD&D, but I think D20 comes to a good compomise with its multiclasing system, and D20M/Grim tales this becomes so that problems with the class system (lack of flexibility in achieving your chosen character concept) almost disappears. The compromise on the other side of the equasion is where your character class merely restricts how easily you can spend points in different areas (the CODA system of the new LotR and even, to a lesser extent, the Storyteller system are good examples of this) adding the strong character flavour of a class system and controls to abuse that a points based character creation system is open to. For me, levels are no big problem - I can quite happily take them or leave them, but I can see why some people like them and others don't. I suppose the ideal system would allow you the option, letting the GM choose whether you spend your character points freely as they are gained, or that XP must be spent in lumps as you gain levels, with some or all of your spend being dictated by a class.
So that's my ideal system. It's probably not everbody's. The main comercial advantage of D20, though (over the D6 system, to get back to the point) is the little messy bits that other RPGs would avoid, like feats and prestige classes. Love them or hate them, whenever you produce a D20 product, you can always add in some crunch in terms of new PrCs or feats, thus appealing to a wider market. The $500 basic charge for a licence will be the biggest problem that WEG will suffer from. D20 has done so well (even drawing old cynics like me back to D&D after years of hating it after 2nd ed) because there's so much 3rd part stuff out there. Some of it fantastic, some of it downright s***e, but you can always find soemthing to fit with what you want to do. Unearthed Arcana kind of sums this up for me, lots of options to capture the individual feel you want. UA was a great product because it put everything together in one place (and gave it an official stamp of approval), but nearly everything there already existed in other 3rd party products.
that's a bit of a random waffle on the general subject metter, but hopefully you can get what I'm on about
Cheerio,
Ben
Elthurien said:
Wow is this place different from RPG.net. Had you said something like that there, you'd have a half-dozen guys wanting to cut your throat.
I for one totally agree with you: though level systems aren't the ONLY way to go, they are certainly hugely advantageous for ease of use. Is it realistic? not really. Is it playable? Yes. And most of the times (not always, but most of the times) that's more important.
Nisarg
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Nisarg said:
I like RPG.net but I'd visit more often if Eric's Grandma were moderator.
I also like the d6 system. It's easy, it's fun, and chicks dig dudes who roll handfulls of dice. The system does have it's problems. "Battle driods aren't permitted for PCs because they're broken" is not my idea of handling a balance issue. But it's a cool system.
LostSoul
Adventurer
I love the d6 system. I've had more fun playing it than any other game.
d6 is really flexible. You can add or subtract rules very easily. Everything works with the same mechanic, much more so than even d20. (In d20, you have Saves and Spell DCs and Feats and other things that throw things off, in my opinion.) I was able to add on "rules" with only a few moments thought. I came up with rules for getting drunk, rules for rolling dice for wealth, for fuel, for distance, for communication, for fires, etc.
Sometimes you can feel like there's not enough complexity, but you can always play a wargame if you want that. In d6, the rules never get in the way of the story or the action. It's great.
I did have some concerns with Jedi, because they start off weaker and then suddenly blossom into amazing characters that leave everyone else in the dust (although that only happens late in a campaign). One other problem with Jedi (or higher level combat, for that matter) is it tends to be attack-defend-attack-defend-attack-hit-kill. One simple rule change - the amount of damage you can do is limited by how much your attack roll beat the defense roll - and you solve that.
I never found the bucket o' dice to be an issue, because most of the time we were only rolling 4 to 8 dice. Although in the epic final battle between two Jedi, Force Points being spent left and right, we were rolling 30 dice... but that gave the whole fight a really epic quality (and is there really that much difference between bucket o' dice and a 10d6 fireball?). (The trick I use to adding d6s quickly is to group them into 10s. Add all the 6s and 4s and 5s together, then put all the 1s and 2s and 3s into 5s.)
Adding levels would be really easy, too. Just say that each level hits whenever you want it to, and each level a character gets x amount of character points to spend on skills.
NPC creation was really simple because all you had to do was ask yourself "how good is this guy at this skill?" And then you'd have the score. I got to the point where I didn't have to stat up NPCs before the game.
You also have to run the game differently from D&D. I'm not really sure what the difference is, but just that if you try and play it like D&D it won't really work.
d6 is really flexible. You can add or subtract rules very easily. Everything works with the same mechanic, much more so than even d20. (In d20, you have Saves and Spell DCs and Feats and other things that throw things off, in my opinion.) I was able to add on "rules" with only a few moments thought. I came up with rules for getting drunk, rules for rolling dice for wealth, for fuel, for distance, for communication, for fires, etc.
Sometimes you can feel like there's not enough complexity, but you can always play a wargame if you want that. In d6, the rules never get in the way of the story or the action. It's great.
I did have some concerns with Jedi, because they start off weaker and then suddenly blossom into amazing characters that leave everyone else in the dust (although that only happens late in a campaign). One other problem with Jedi (or higher level combat, for that matter) is it tends to be attack-defend-attack-defend-attack-hit-kill. One simple rule change - the amount of damage you can do is limited by how much your attack roll beat the defense roll - and you solve that.
I never found the bucket o' dice to be an issue, because most of the time we were only rolling 4 to 8 dice. Although in the epic final battle between two Jedi, Force Points being spent left and right, we were rolling 30 dice... but that gave the whole fight a really epic quality (and is there really that much difference between bucket o' dice and a 10d6 fireball?). (The trick I use to adding d6s quickly is to group them into 10s. Add all the 6s and 4s and 5s together, then put all the 1s and 2s and 3s into 5s.)
Adding levels would be really easy, too. Just say that each level hits whenever you want it to, and each level a character gets x amount of character points to spend on skills.
NPC creation was really simple because all you had to do was ask yourself "how good is this guy at this skill?" And then you'd have the score. I got to the point where I didn't have to stat up NPCs before the game.
You also have to run the game differently from D&D. I'm not really sure what the difference is, but just that if you try and play it like D&D it won't really work.
Psion
Adventurer
Never really liked D6. Even back in the day, we only played SW d6 on rare occasion because it simply didn't compare to other SF games of the day.
What it has going for it is that it is dirt simple to make characters (if WEG hasn't goofed that up, like they did with their masterbook system between TORG which was simple, and Shatterzone which wasn't). But really, its fistful of dice system got out of hand once it got high enough you could realistically do more than 1 or 2 things a round, damage never felt right to me (beeing strong was just as effective as wearing heavy armor...), and in WEG SW at least, the significant NPCs were placed so ridiculously above PC levels you could only hope to emulate them after years of solid play.
What it has going for it is that it is dirt simple to make characters (if WEG hasn't goofed that up, like they did with their masterbook system between TORG which was simple, and Shatterzone which wasn't). But really, its fistful of dice system got out of hand once it got high enough you could realistically do more than 1 or 2 things a round, damage never felt right to me (beeing strong was just as effective as wearing heavy armor...), and in WEG SW at least, the significant NPCs were placed so ridiculously above PC levels you could only hope to emulate them after years of solid play.
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