Dagger Implement Weirdness
- Thread starter NMcCoy
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Burrito Al Pastor
First Post
This is a very strange issue, and I expect we'll see some clarification of it at some point as weapon-implements become more common.
The "weapons don't get powers when they're implements" thing should be taken with a grain of salt, because it doesn't make sense in a pretty broad spectrum of uses. It wouldn't apply to the daily power of a Holy Avenger, for example. Why? Because weapons that are being used as implements don't stop being weapons; they're both a weapon and an implement, at the same time, all the time. Just because you use your Holy Avenger to cast a spell doesn't mean you can't then use the daily power of the weapon.
Where this starts to matter is in the regard of, say, Frost weapons. The power says:
As long as the power has either the Weapon or Implement keyword, things don't change at all. If, god forbid, it has both the Weapon and Implement keywords... well, I just don't want to think about how that would work.
Similarly, you can't use a Quick weapon's power from a spell proc, because you didn't use the weapon for that spell - you used the implement.
Good question, though.
The "weapons don't get powers when they're implements" thing should be taken with a grain of salt, because it doesn't make sense in a pretty broad spectrum of uses. It wouldn't apply to the daily power of a Holy Avenger, for example. Why? Because weapons that are being used as implements don't stop being weapons; they're both a weapon and an implement, at the same time, all the time. Just because you use your Holy Avenger to cast a spell doesn't mean you can't then use the daily power of the weapon.
Where this starts to matter is in the regard of, say, Frost weapons. The power says:
Since it's only useable by the item in its regard as a weapon, it only converts damage to cold damage when it's being used as a weapon, i.e. in a power with the Weapon keyword. (Same criteria for when you get the proficiency bonus.)
As long as the power has either the Weapon or Implement keyword, things don't change at all. If, god forbid, it has both the Weapon and Implement keywords... well, I just don't want to think about how that would work.
Similarly, you can't use a Quick weapon's power from a spell proc, because you didn't use the weapon for that spell - you used the implement.
Good question, though.
Eldorian
First Post
Any idea what the attack stat for the avenger is? The sample had a 16 wis and 16 dex, and was a halforc (who I'm thinking is str/dex), so I'm guessing wis? Disappointed if it is wis, cause then we have cleric, druid, invoker, shaman and avenger all with wis, making wis up there with str for over represented.
edit: damn found, the entry in the PHB posted online. Wis with dex or int secondary. Apparently, Devas get wis/int. Wish Avenger was a dex build.
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Something along these lines has come up in the game I play in.
My character is an Artificer, and he has a lot of Wizard like powers that use his Ranged Weapon instead of an implement... So if I had a flame bow, would my force based At-will power become fire instead of force, or force and fire, or stay force?
In the end we made a quick house ruling based on exception based design:
If the power doesn't have a damage type, then power from the weapon kicks in. If the power does have a damage type (force, acid, fire, etc) then the power overrides the item's type.... so if I have a flaming bow, my basic ranged attacks and my arrow powers without a damage type now do fire, but if I "cast" Aggravating Force, my attack does Force damage because the power is spicific to the attack instead of the broader rule from the weapon's property.
When one of our players recently rolled up a Sorcerer, this topic came up again and we used the same ruling... which means the Frost Dagger idea would only make a handful of the untyped sorcerer powers into frost damage.
My character is an Artificer, and he has a lot of Wizard like powers that use his Ranged Weapon instead of an implement... So if I had a flame bow, would my force based At-will power become fire instead of force, or force and fire, or stay force?
In the end we made a quick house ruling based on exception based design:
If the power doesn't have a damage type, then power from the weapon kicks in. If the power does have a damage type (force, acid, fire, etc) then the power overrides the item's type.... so if I have a flaming bow, my basic ranged attacks and my arrow powers without a damage type now do fire, but if I "cast" Aggravating Force, my attack does Force damage because the power is spicific to the attack instead of the broader rule from the weapon's property.
When one of our players recently rolled up a Sorcerer, this topic came up again and we used the same ruling... which means the Frost Dagger idea would only make a handful of the untyped sorcerer powers into frost damage.
DreadArchon
First Post
As near as I can tell, anything with "Weapon" as a keyword is being done by the weapon, and therefore benefits from weapon abilities. In the case of an Artificer, for example, a bow that shoots ice arrows should still shoot ice arrows if you stick a grenade to the arrow--assuming, of course, that you have the ice turned on.
DracoSuave
First Post
A lot of the implement/weapon questions originated before the swordmage. Once that class came in, and weapons and implements started to overlap beyond Holy Avenger weapons and Pact Blades, for the purposes of simplicity, they've amalgamated them so that an attack with a weapon-as-weapon and an attack with a weapon-as-implement work exactly the same way. As written, the rules do not differentiate between the two, everything has been the result of rulings which have been overturned.
So, powers.
If you use a power from an item that changes all damage it deals to cold damage, then all damage done with powers by that weapon are changed to cold damage.
If the item's power, instead, says 'all weapon damage' then it'd only apply to damage done with [W] style, regardless of if it is a Weapon power or an Implement power.
Long story short: Ruling based on things before the swordmage complicated stuff up should be taken with a grain of salt.
So, powers.
If you use a power from an item that changes all damage it deals to cold damage, then all damage done with powers by that weapon are changed to cold damage.
If the item's power, instead, says 'all weapon damage' then it'd only apply to damage done with [W] style, regardless of if it is a Weapon power or an Implement power.
Long story short: Ruling based on things before the swordmage complicated stuff up should be taken with a grain of salt.
Irda Ranger
First Post
No house ruling is required. See PHB, p. 226:
Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers often have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item’s power and the other power all apply. For instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack with a power that deals radiant damage, the power deals both fire damage and radiant damage.
Irda Ranger
First Post
Did you miss Ziana's post? The pertinent (and only) question is this: Are we speaking of a Property or Power?
Ziana has definitively answered the question with her reference to the FAQ and CSR's further clarification. The "turns damage to cold damage" thingy is a Power, not an Enhancement, Critical or Property, and therefore does not apply when the frost weapon is used solely as an implement.
For purposes of the Sorcerer's implement-keyword powers the frost item is a +1 implement and nothing more. The frost-related Powers only apply when it is used as a Weapon (meaning, in conjunction with Weapon keyworded powers).
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Irda Ranger
First Post
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Actually, according to the RAW PHB, only the Enhancement bonus applies.
The FAQ/CSR reference you provided is actually more expansive than originally provided, although the RAW's non-reference to Critical was definitely an oversight and the non-reference to Property probably was also.PHB p. 55-56 said:
abyssaldeath
First Post
55-56 is only describing what always apply when there is an accessories key word present on a power. Since a magic weapon/implement's critical, property and powers don't always apply they don't belong in the general rules for how to read a power. You need to page 224-226 for the rules on reading magic items.
The reason there is no mention of magic weapon powers is because not all magic weapon powers are used for attacking with said weapon. Magic item powers are treated in the same way as any other power you know except for the rules listed on page 226.
Powers 226 said:
As this quote shows you, you need to read the items powers for the conditions on when you can use it.
If you are a Swordmage your implement is your weapon. If you are attacking with your implement you are attacking with your weapon. If you are doing damage with your implement you are doing damage with your weapon. Swordmages even have implement powers that do [w] for damage. Other then the FAQ/CSR, can you show me anywhere it is written that says a Swordmage can't use his magic weapons power with one of his implement powers?
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