Daggers are AWESOME!

[Nifft]

Daggers are 1d4 damage, not 1d6, and your pure rogue build is also a pure melee build; short swords are strictly superior to daggers for melee excepting the slashing/piercing versatility.

Ah, you're right on damage. 1d4 is less than 1d6. Sorry 'bout that.

Short swords also can't be thrown. Daggers are versatile -- damage type, and attack range.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, to take a 'real-game' example, in Red Hand of Doom I'm a ranger 6/beastmaster 3 who rides a bad-ass warhorse and fires arrows of bad-assitude. What's a 9th level dagger-fighter build that would be as effective against the foes in Red Hand:

* Hobgoblin warriors.
* Ogres and giants.
* Goblin worg-riders.
* Ghost lions.
* Various spawn of Tiamat.
* Medium to Large dragons.

My character sucks against the ghosts, but otherwise has been a house. Ranged +17/+12 (or +15/+15/+10) for d8+4+d6 cold. My AC is 25. In melee, the horse is more modest, just +13/+13/+8 for d8+6, but it has an AC of 29. Of course, being mounted I've got a distinct mobility advantage, and though I suspect sneak attack will do more damage than I can, I've got a distance advantage.

28-pt. buy.

 

[Zurai]

Short swords also can't be thrown.

Thus why I said, "for pure melee builds..."

For two weapon fighting, daggers and short swords are very similar choices.... 2) a little extra utility if grappled or swallowed whole

Short swords are still light weapons and may still be used during a grapple and while swallowed whole.



So, in essence, it comes down to "Daggers are AWESOME because they can deal two different types of damage and because they can be thrown very short distances". I don't think that's quite enough to qualify for all-caps AWESOMEness, myself. Good choice, yes, but not an AWESOME one.

 

[Fifth Element]

A general character optimization question, since I do so little of it:

Is it standard practice to simply ignore the XP penalty for multiclassing? I notice some of the builds presented above would incur an XP penalty at some levels. This isn't trivial if you're actually going to play the character.

 

[Nifft]

I notice some of the builds presented above would incur an XP penalty at some levels.

Which ones? I've tried to time any multi-classing in my builds to NOT incur such penalties, or to be of a race that ignores the one class which would provoke such.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Patlin]

Short swords are still light weapons and may still be used during a grapple and while swallowed whole.

Oops. My bad... I thought there was a size difference, but your right: there isn't.

I still think the extra damage type and the ability to throw the thing if desperate (against, say, an opponent flying just out of reach) are worth the 1 point of damage.

I wasn't the one who came out with the all caps, but I'm still looking forward to playing my dual dagger character someday. The daggers, in my opinion, are at least equally viable to the short sword.

 

[Zurai]

I still think the extra damage type and the ability to throw the thing if desperate (against, say, an opponent flying just out of reach) are worth the 1 point of damage.

At times it is, at times it isn't. I'm definitely in the "daggers are very nice weapons" camp and I almost always include at least a few daggers in the character sheets of my martially-inclined characters.

I just don't agree that they're all-caps AWESOME (and yes, I know that wasn't neccesarily your assertion). Probably not even all-lowercase awesome. Good, and probably the best simple weapon, I'll agree to.

 

[Patlin]

I notice some of the builds presented above would incur an XP penalty at some levels

Mine won't. Failed to mention it's human, here's the progression

1
1/1
1/2
1/2/1
1/2/2
1/2/3
1/2/4
1/2/5
1/2/6
2/2/6

etc. up to 8/6/6

Remember, as a human you ignore the highest level class. That'll be Scout from level 6 to about 17, and then Sworsdage later. No xp penalty.

 

[Nifft]

Also, would it effect your initial two builds much if you made it human rather than halfling?

Ultimately that would mean -3 to hit (size, racial, dex), but +1 to damage, and +1 feat. Which could add many ranged options earlier, or just ones you didn't touch. It also would let you put improved feint in your build (letting you do sneak attack damage per round rather than every other round if you feinted). Though maybe if you go Human, Brutal throw might be better (replaces Weapon Finesse, lets you focus on Str only).

Haven't responded yet to these, sorry.

1/ Human would be fine, I was just trying to see what I could do to make the Halfling a viable melee dude. His racial +1 to attack rolls with thrown daggers is extremely sweet, too, since it (plus Point Blank Shot) precisely negate the penalty for Rapid Shot.

I didn't take advantage of it, but there's a neat Halfling Paragon which gives +2 to thrown weapon damage and +2 Dexterity.

2/ Brutal Throw is great, I just didn't see a neat way to work it in AND keep the builds within 25 point buy, AND keep them viable at low levels. Anything Strength-based makes me itch for two-handed Power Attack...

Cheers, -- N

 

[MithrasRahl]

Just out of curiosity, why daggers and not kukri? Can kukri be thrown?