# 5EDamage Multiple Option concept

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
EDIT: After some feedback I am going to try the Massive Damage optional rule in the DMG and see if that takes care of my goal. The OP is below for people who still care to chime in.

There's an idea I've been toying with and I'm interested in some back and forth on it.

When you hit on an attack and your total attack roll is 10 or more than the target's AC, you deal double damage. If you hit by 15 or more, your damage is tripled. You do not roll additional dice, you simply multiple your base damage by the bonus multiple.

Ex. Behgord the Barbarian has a +9 attack bonus and is attacking an Ogre with AC 11. The player rolls a 17, for a total of 26. Since this is exactly 15 higher than the Ogre's AC, when the player rolls damage of 11 for Behgord, the damage is mulitplied by 3 to 33 points.

Later, Behgord is fighting an orc guard with AC 15. The player rolls another 17! Since the total is 26, which is 11 higher than the AC 15, the damage is doubled. When Behgord's player rolls 9 damage, it is doubled to 18 and the orc (only 15 hp) is killed.

If your attack resulted in a critical hit, you roll double dice for critical damage and then multiply it.

Now, what am I trying to accomplish with this idea?

I am looking for something so higher level characters can more easily defeat mooks with a good single hit. Think of something like LotR movies. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas all routinely defeat goblins and orcs with single strikes, but in 5E this is not easily represented as far as I see.

Saves failed by 10 or more could also result in higher damage, longer durations, etc.

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ASIDE:

If you hit on an attack, you make another attack roll. If you succeed, you roll again, and so on until you miss. For each "hit", you multiply your rolled damage. If the first attack was a critical, you double the dice and then multiply for an additional "hits."

Ex. Behgord only needs a 2 to hit the ogre, so will likely hit, and hit several times over before rolling a 1. If the total rolls that hit were, say 7, his damage if he rolled 11 would be 77, killing the ogre.

Now, this was TOO much by far, so I came up with the other version of 10-over and 15-over hits.

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Thoughts? While I like the idea, I am not certain at all of the execution of it...

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#### Cap'n Kobold

##### Hero
Bounded accuracy and the use of HP rather than AC scaling make this harder to do in 5e, since it is a little against some of the core concepts.
You might be better off just having low-level mooks drop in one hit, (as I think 4e did sometimes) or just reduce their HP.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Bounded accuracy and the use of HP rather than AC scaling make this harder to do in 5e, since it is a little against some of the core concepts.
You might be better off just having low-level mooks drop in one hit, (as I think 4e did sometimes) or just reduce their HP.
SWSE had mooks drop on a single hit, but it also used Vitality and Wounds instead of HP.

You raise a good point, however. In think back to FotR, the cave troll took several hits from all these great fighter-types to take down... so obviously their damage wouldn't scale as rapidly there.

Hmmm.... more food for thought. Thanks.

#### cbwjm

##### Hero
I'm thinking of using modified minion rules from 4e to get the same effect. Minions have 1 hit point and don't take damage if they successfully save against a spell or effect that deals half damage on a miss unless that spell would still deal X damage. I'm undecided on what X should be. I'm thinking 10 hit points but I might do some testing and adjust it. My players are only level 4 so I haven't felt the need to bring in minions yet.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I'm not familiar with 4E (never played it at all).

Maybe I should just do something with CR's instead? Most races that might be considered mooks are CR 1/2 or lower. I would imagine Aragor, Gimli, and Legolas in Tier III for most if not all of LotR movies.

You know, I just realized using the rule for Massive Damage in the DMG might work well in we implemented it regularly (or a variant of it).

Even something like at orc with 15 hp would have to make a check if it took 8 or more from a single hit. Instead of rolling for the system shock check, I could just have the target drop to 0 and stable.

#### the Jester

##### Legend
It's pretty rare that a sufficiently high level pc won't drop a sufficiently low-CR creature in one hit. When was the last time a 9th level pc needed more than one hit to slay a goblin, for instance? I think damage scaling does most of the job for you here- although that's assuming that the DM uses low-CR monsters as mooks rather than insisting that they have to be tougher monsters just because the pcs are higher level.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
It's pretty rare that a sufficiently high level pc won't drop a sufficiently low-CR creature in one hit. When was the last time a 9th level pc needed more than one hit to slay a goblin, for instance? I think damage scaling does most of the job for you here- although that's assuming that the DM uses low-CR monsters as mooks rather than insisting that they have to be tougher monsters just because the pcs are higher level.
Goblins, sure, but orcs with 15 hp, and maybe even gnolls with 22 hp, could be mooks at mid to higher levels (8th and higher?) but few battlers will do 15+ damage per hit IME, at least not to the point that nearly every hit will drop a target.

I am only thinking CR 1/2 or lower as mooks, maybe a CR 1 here or there at higher levels. But, I would never consider making something like and ogre a "mook" for instance.

However, using the massive damage rule will probably take care of that and for the time being I will try using it regularly to drop mooks, often in a single hit.

#### the Jester

##### Legend
Goblins, sure, but orcs with 15 hp, and maybe even gnolls with 22 hp, could be mooks at mid to higher levels (8th and higher?) but few battlers will do 15+ damage per hit IME, at least not to the point that nearly every hit will drop a target.
I have found that high level martial pcs can deal that 15 to 22 points fairly easily in a round, even if not in a single hit every time. YMMV, of course. And I get what you're going for- like so many others, I really liked the minion rules in 4e- and think it's a fairly admirable goal. I guess it's just a matter of what you want in a mook.

If you are looking for higher CR mooks, one option would be to give things like goblins higher AC via better armor, slightly improved stats to bump their attack bonus/damage a bit, etc.

My concern with your massive damage rules is the effect it will have on low level pcs, to be honest. An AC 13, 10 hit point druid can easily get annihilated in one shot by a double-damage hit from an orc, much less a triple damage one.

EDIT: Whoops, I missed your system shock rules there. Those seem to bypass hit points entirely. I don't really care for that. Again, I think they'll bite pcs too hard. A lot of monsters do significant damage in one hit; I think that this kind of thing will end up killing pcs more often than feels fair.

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#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I have found that high level martial pcs can deal that 15 to 22 points fairly easily in a round, even if not in a single hit every time. YMMV, of course. And I get what you're going for- like so many others, I really liked the minion rules in 4e- and think it's a fairly admirable goal. I guess it's just a matter of what you want in a mook.

If you are looking for higher CR mooks, one option would be to give things like goblins higher AC via better armor, slightly improved stats to bump their attack bonus/damage a bit, etc.

My concern with your massive damage rules is the effect it will have on low level pcs, to be honest. An AC 13, 10 hit point druid can easily get annihilated in one shot by a double-damage hit from an orc, much less a triple damage one.

EDIT: Whoops, I missed your system shock rules there. Those seem to bypass hit points entirely. I don't really care for that. Again, I think they'll bite pcs too hard. A lot of monsters do significant damage in one hit; I think that this kind of thing will end up killing pcs more often than feels fair.
Well, I guess for me (and so far our group) it seems like damage by 8th level is about 12 average per hit (4-5 for ability score, 4-5 for weapon, maybe a point or two for magic or features like Dueling Fighting Style).

As for the double/triple damage idea, it certainly can make trouble for PCs as well! You example isn't very likely though, about 15% for double, and triple isn't possible. Still, even trying to work in massive damage from the DMG is more likely to be an issue at levels 1 and 2. Your 10 hp druid needs only take a hit for 5 hp and they might drop!

As always, further thought is needed and thanks for your input!

#### Auramancer

##### Explorer
Seems like the -5/+10 feats combined with the massive damage option would cover your needs pretty well.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
Seems like the -5/+10 feats combined with the massive damage option would cover your needs pretty well.
I'd like to do something that wouldn't rely on a feat to create the effect, but the massive damage rule alone might work well. Also, modeling this after the LotR movies, Legolas would like have Sharpshooter, but Aragon and Gimli wouldn't benefit from GWM since they weren't using heavy weapons.

#### Tony Vargas

##### Legend
I'd like to do something that wouldn't rely on a feat to create the effect,
Do something similar, take a penalty, instant-kill on a hit, only works if the target is much lower CR than your level.

Or you could lift the Truely Bad-ass rule from GURPS Cinematic, and the high level character just kills a mook for free, each round, just for being in the fight. (IIRC, it's been a couple decades)

And, of course save:1/2 AEs will already be erasing mooks en masse.

#### aco175

##### Hero
I wonder if the clerics turning ability has a chart that could work similar. At some point they destroy the undead instead of turning them. Maybe the fighter could kill the low-level monster instead of damaging them.

Should it work for all the PCs or just the melee ones. I know that Gandalf was kicking butt, but generally wizards are not known for one-shoting with melee weapons.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I wonder if the clerics turning ability has a chart that could work similar. At some point they destroy the undead instead of turning them. Maybe the fighter could kill the low-level monster instead of damaging them.

Should it work for all the PCs or just the melee ones. I know that Gandalf was kicking butt, but generally wizards are not known for one-shoting with melee weapons.
I thought of the cleric turning idea, but they go up to CR 4, which is higher than I was thinking for this idea with killing mooks.

I would also want a rule that worked for all classes. Considering most CR 0 or 1/8 monsters will die with a single hit (most often), only 1/4, 1/2, and CR 1 remain. I could do something like this:

Level: CR
5: 1/4
11: 1/2
17 : 1

But the more I look at the idea of using the massive damage rule, that might work just as easily. Most of the stuff I would consider mooks are 30 hp or less, and with the massive damage rule a hit of 15 would trigger it (not unreasonable at higher levels), and force a check to "kill" (reduce to 0 hp).

#### delph

##### Explorer
I didn't read all the answers and posts but IMO it's too massive. Think about vice-versa version - if greater monster hit a player's character with this attack. I think It's better just add 1 (2,3,...) weapon damage dice. For some situation it's still same, but in further game almost everyone have some extra dmg dices, bonuses, etc...

just imagine when warcleric (or paladin, now not sure) give rogue +10 to attack and help action... and we can add it's an assassin with surprise strike... you can kill anything in one strike. That's not good.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I didn't read all the answers and posts but IMO it's too massive. Think about vice-versa version - if greater monster hit a player's character with this attack. I think It's better just add 1 (2,3,...) weapon damage dice. For some situation it's still same, but in further game almost everyone have some extra dmg dices, bonuses, etc...

just imagine when warcleric (or paladin, now not sure) give rogue +10 to attack and help action... and we can add it's an assassin with surprise strike... you can kill anything in one strike. That's not good.
Thanks for your input. Various combinations would make the initial concept too strong. I've decided the massive damage rule in the DMG will probably work for the effect I am after, but I'll have to try it out to know for certain.

#### 5ekyu

There's an idea I've been toying with and I'm interested in some back and forth on it.

When you hit on an attack and your total attack roll is 10 or more than the target's AC, you deal double damage. If you hit by 15 or more, your damage is tripled. You do not roll additional dice, you simply multiple your base damage by the bonus multiple.

Ex. Behgord the Barbarian has a +9 attack bonus and is attacking an Ogre with AC 11. The player rolls a 17, for a total of 26. Since this is exactly 15 higher than the Ogre's AC, when the player rolls damage of 11 for Behgord, the damage is mulitplied by 3 to 33 points.

Later, Behgord is fighting an orc guard with AC 15. The player rolls another 17! Since the total is 26, which is 11 higher than the AC 15, the damage is doubled. When Behgord's player rolls 9 damage, it is doubled to 18 and the orc (only 15 hp) is killed.

If your attack resulted in a critical hit, you roll double dice for critical damage and then multiply it.

Now, what am I trying to accomplish with this idea?

I am looking for something so higher level characters can more easily defeat mooks with a good single hit. Think of something like LotR movies. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas all routinely defeat goblins and orcs with single strikes, but in 5E this is not easily represented as far as I see.

Saves failed by 10 or more could also result in higher damage, longer durations, etc.

----------------------------------

ASIDE:

If you hit on an attack, you make another attack roll. If you succeed, you roll again, and so on until you miss. For each "hit", you multiply your rolled damage. If the first attack was a critical, you double the dice and then multiply for an additional "hits."

Ex. Behgord only needs a 2 to hit the ogre, so will likely hit, and hit several times over before rolling a 1. If the total rolls that hit were, say 7, his damage if he rolled 11 would be 77, killing the ogre.

Now, this was TOO much by far, so I came up with the other version of 10-over and 15-over hits.

----------------------------------

Thoughts? While I like the idea, I am not certain at all of the execution of it...
In my last session the 8th level barbarian hit the nook andxsquished it in one swing.

How did I accomplish it? By selecting mooks for the mooks. It was a 15 hp hobgoblin. Bog standards out of the book, just a couple more hp within its range above average but not max. Most of the "mooks" went down in one swing from the big guys.

So, to me, if you are using extra rules to offset the fact that you have raised your "mook" bar by using 20 or higher quality mooks, it's like treating a self-inflicted wound.

That said, I have zero issues with replacing the normal crit rule with a "hit by 10" type rule, since it brings character skill into it.

But, just to be clear, a rule based on AC and success over is not really a "mook" focused ruled at all. It's an AC focused rule.

Looking at my wordgs vs hobgoblins with chain and shield vs sorcerer etc I see nominal linkage between AC and "mook" or level. Its not uncommon to see 5th to 9th level casters or beasts of lotsa HD with AC in the 12-14 or to see low end mooks in AC 15-16 with medium and shields.

So, as a rule claiming to target mooks, an AC based trigger is really more of an anti mage rule and an anti-beast rule- missing its target by... well lots.

So, again if just using mooks is not an option, I would suggest instead a more liberal massive damage rule that applies additional results when you do say more than half a creatures HP max in one hit. Perhaps its extra damage, perhaps it's a save for ko, etc.

#### Fenris-77

##### Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I think you need to be granular about your goals not only conceptually, but also in practice at the table. One of my main goals in using a mook rule of any kind is to help streamline combat against those enemies. Adding an extra roll is almost the opposite of what I'd be looking for. Nor would I be looking to add a mechanic that adds any number crunching to the encounter (i.e. multiplication). This is strictly personal preference of course, but I think I'd head in the direction of CR x at level x is one hit one kill and just leave it at that.

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
In my last session the 8th level barbarian hit the nook andxsquished it in one swing.

How did I accomplish it? By selecting mooks for the mooks. It was a 15 hp hobgoblin. Bog standards out of the book, just a couple more hp within its range above average but not max. Most of the "mooks" went down in one swing from the big guys.

So, to me, if you are using extra rules to offset the fact that you have raised your "mook" bar by using 20 or higher quality mooks, it's like treating a self-inflicted wound.

That said, I have zero issues with replacing the normal crit rule with a "hit by 10" type rule, since it brings character skill into it.

But, just to be clear, a rule based on AC and success over is not really a "mook" focused ruled at all. It's an AC focused rule.

Looking at my wordgs vs hobgoblins with chain and shield vs sorcerer etc I see nominal linkage between AC and "mook" or level. Its not uncommon to see 5th to 9th level casters or beasts of lotsa HD with AC in the 12-14 or to see low end mooks in AC 15-16 with medium and shields.

So, as a rule claiming to target mooks, an AC based trigger is really more of an anti mage rule and an anti-beast rule- missing its target by... well lots.

So, again if just using mooks is not an option, I would suggest instead a more liberal massive damage rule that applies additional results when you do say more than half a creatures HP max in one hit. Perhaps its extra damage, perhaps it's a save for ko, etc.
Thanks for the feedback and many of the issues you bring up have been addressed.

Yeah, the AC thing (as good as the idea could work) isn't the right approach.

For my main "tougher mook" I am looking at the standard 15 hp orc. If your 8th level barbarian is one-hitting 15 hp routinely, I have to think either you are rolling good damage or have other things factored in? I am thinking +5 STR, +3 rage, and greatsword avg of 7? That would give you an average of 15 hp, which means you are rolling average damage or better routinely.

Anyway, I've decided just to try the Massive Damage optional rule from the DMG. I think that will do it and is pretty much what you suggested (1/2 max hp in one hit and DC 15 CON save or drop).

#### dnd4vr

##### The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
I think you need to be granular about your goals not only conceptually, but also in practice at the table. One of my main goals in using a mook rule of any kind is to help streamline combat against those enemies. Adding an extra roll is almost the opposite of what I'd be looking for. Nor would I be looking to add a mechanic that adds any number crunching to the encounter (i.e. multiplication). This is strictly personal preference of course, but I think I'd head in the direction of CR x at level x is one hit one kill and just leave it at that.
True. Speed of play is always important IMO. I should edit my OP to say I am probably just going with the massive damge rule in the DMG to try out at first, but even coming up with a rule to remove the CON save involved would be nice.