Damage of "Fire Seeds"

[uzagi_akimbo]

We have a small(ish) problem clogging up some of the fun in our campaign over the interpretation of just how the damage from the "Fire Seeds" spell works, specifically the damage from the "Acorn" version of the spell


Fire Seeds
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level: Drd 6, Fire 6, Sun 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: Up to four touched acorns or up to eight touched holly berries
Duration: 10 min./level or until used
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Depending on the version of fire seeds you choose, you turn acorns into splash weapons that you or another character can throw, or you turn holly berries into bombs that you can detonate on command.
Acorn Grenades: As many as four acorns turn into special splash weapons that can be hurled as far as 100 feet. A ranged touch attack roll is required to strike the intended target. Together, the acorns are capable of dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6), divided up among the acorns as you wish.
Each acorn explodes upon striking any hard surface. In addition to its regular fire damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage per die, and it ignites any combustible materials within 10 feet. A creature within this area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage; a creature struck directly is not allowed a saving throw.

Specificially, we are divided upon the "splash" damage, please comment which way you see it working

A) Target struck by ranged touch attack (throw) takes 1D6/caster level of fire damage - no save, everyone within "splash"-radius takes 1D6+1/caster level with a Reflex save for 1/2 damage. Combustibles ignite.

B) Target struck by ranged touch attack (throw) takes 1D6/caster level of fire damage - no save, everyone within "splash"- Radius takes 1 point/caster level with a Reflex save for 1/2 damage. Combustibles ignite.


Also, I would like to ask about your take on the definition of "hard surface" and "strike". Any guidelines as for velocity or range travelled necessary for the combustion ? Basically, is this nitroglycerin which you shuffle around with extreme caution lest you drop it, accidentally squeeze or even set it off by rolling it around in your pocket/hand inappropriately ? At the moment, some players envision these "Acorns" as miniature fireball-grenades easily transportable by the "stealthers", with the possibility of sneak damage (ranged touch), criticals and handy blast effects circumventing Spell Resistance (and yes, the question has crept up if these would damage golems - the typical conjuration "damagers" vs. "immunity to all effects allowing spell resistance" problem). Hard surface to my mind is anything that a glass would break upon, given a decent (5') drop



Secondary question - with a max-range of 100' and listed as a "thrown" (e.g. "hurled"(), what range increments should be used for the ranged touch , seeing an analogous use to hurled flasks of oil ? 10' steps ? 15' steps ? None ?

Thanks for the feedback

 

[Sound of Azure]

It's B.

Upon reading the text, you can see that you may turn up to 4 acorns into incendiaries that strike in a similar manner to alchemist's fire. You attack to strike a single target for the listed damage (1d6/caster level, divided between up to 4 acorns- you could have 4x 5d6 damage acorns at 20th level for instance). Everything within 10 feet is subject to the splash damage (=1 damage per die of the acorn used, so if you hit with a 5d6 acorn, there is 5 splash damage within 10 feet). Unattended flammable items within the splash area may catch alight.


For your secondary questions:
Range> Because Fire Seeds is a spell, it doesn't have a range increment. Its range is simply 100 feet.

Sneak attack> As for sneak attacking with the acorns, yes I think that is in the spirit of the spell (obviously only the being struck would be sneak attacked).

Hard Surface> I'd use the same guidelines they use for fireball for this- "any material body or solid surface". Your glass analogy seems fitting.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

It's B.

Upon reading the text, you can see that you may turn up to 4 acorns into incendiaries that strike in a similar manner to alchemist's fire. You attack to strike a single target for the listed damage (1d6/caster level, divided between up to 4 acorns- you could have 4x 5d6 damage acorns at 20th level for instance). Everything within 10 feet is subject to the splash damage (=1 damage per die of the acorn used, so if you hit with a 5d6 acorn, there is 5 splash damage within 10 feet). Unattended flammable items within the splash area may catch alight.


For your secondary questions:
Range> Because Fire Seeds is a spell, it doesn't have a range increment. Its range is simply 100 feet.

Sneak attack> As for sneak attacking with the acorns, yes I think that is in the spirit of the spell (obviously only the being struck would be sneak attacked).

Hard Surface> I'd use the same guidelines they use for fireball for this- "any material body or solid surface". Your glass analogy seems fitting.

Thanks - So your answer would be B)
And, the "range" given in the description is "touch". The acorn-grenade then gets thrown/dropped, hence my worry just how "aerodynamic" it is.

Sneak attack was never in question, the acorn being a "ranged touch" when hurled - it just allows some truly hideous attacks and I wanted to point that out for considerations

 

[Sound of Azure]

Yeah, the "touch" range being for the acorns or berries. It should really have a see text entry.

The weird thing for me is that the spell is Conjuration (creation), when the effect seems to be something of a Transmutation (normal acorns into fiery ones). It's kind of a weird (but cool) spell.
I'll have to remember this next time I play a druid.

 

[TheGogmagog]

It's B.

I agree on this point.

"In addition to its regular fire damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage per die, and it ignites any combustible materials within 10 feet."
At first I thought that it said in addition to regular fire damage, which would add normal fire damage, but in re-reading it, it seems to refer to the spell damage to the primary target.

As far as defining hard surfaces or what it takes to be damaged... D&D doesn't get involved of the minutia of wear and tear on clothes and armor, nor does it get involved in items taking damage when you fall. As a DM I'd rather assume that if it's thrown, it goes off, if it's not thrown it doesn't. I don't want to create a system where every time a character is hit, or falls that his fire seeds or alchemist fire all have to save or burst. One it's too much work, and two it irks me as a player. If I know the DM's going to ad hock rules about that, I spend an extra 10 or 50 gp for a wooden or brass box that would survive any fall that I would survive. All that's gained for overlooking that small suspension of disbelief is a minor adjustment by the players that would satisfy the DM's mental block.

On range, I can't decide. It is a thrown weapon, which would indeed follow the same rules as alchemist fire and the like. If that was the case though, siting a maximum range seems odd. I usually don't remember to apply range increments, so it might not matter, but I'm leaning to it being a thrown weapon with 10' range increments.

For golems, spells with "spell resistance: NO" work on them. They arn't immune to all spells, they have an infinite spell resistance.

For sneak attack, yes anything with an attack roll allows a sneak attack. For spells, only the first attack roll in a round gets the sneak attack damage. So if you rule it's a thrown weapon, each attack would get sneak attack damage, if it's a spell with 100' range then only the first acorn each round would get the sneak attack damage. This assumes that all other sneak attack conditions apply, within 30', opponent denied dex, etc.

 

[Sound of Azure]

On re-examining the spell, I realise that the "hurling" range could be as normal for a thrown weapon.

Comparing it to magic stone, for instance: Magic stones can be thrown with a range increment of 20 feet. If used as a sling stone it is 50 feet.

In the rules for thrown weapons, the maximum increments you can throw is 5 increments. So, if you treat them as thrown weapons (I recommend just being abe to "hurl" to 100 feet with no increment for simplicity), the range increment would be 20 feet.

Are there any other spells that create throwable weapons?

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

/bump

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

/bump #2 (last one iI guess)

 

[moritheil]

Minimal splash (B).