damage reduction for armor?

I like this suggestion best:

Armor converts lethal damage into nonlethal damage, up to an amount equal to the armor bonus. It still provides its normal AC bonus. Critical hits ignore this damage conversion, as do crossbows and firearms fired at targets 30 ft. away or less.
 

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RangerWickett said:
I like this suggestion best:

Armor converts lethal damage into nonlethal damage, up to an amount equal to the armor bonus. It still provides its normal AC bonus. Critical hits ignore this damage conversion, as do crossbows and firearms fired at targets 30 ft. away or less.

Why only crossbows? What about normal bows? Composite?

If you're going to go that route, doesn't any piercing weapon do much the same thing as a crossbow?
 

RangerWickett said:
I like this suggestion best:

Armor converts lethal damage into nonlethal damage, up to an amount equal to the armor bonus. It still provides its normal AC bonus. Critical hits ignore this damage conversion, as do crossbows and firearms fired at targets 30 ft. away or less.

But what about Natural Armor? Natural Armor can be extreamly high numbers in some cases and makes it nearly impossible to injure seriously short of critical hits or armor peircing type weapons. Certain weapons would get a bias and I think thats risky. Also, the nature of the armor and the weapon used could influence how effective it is. Chain armors provide little defense against maces and hammers as its flexiable and doesnt cushing the blow. At the same time plate armors are stop the blow better but get dinged up something fierce in the process. How would effects like these apply to natural armor as well. How does magical weapons influence how easily magical armor is bypassed (asside from doing more damage).

the WotC version is prolly one of the best implimentations of Armor as DR though it is bluring the line between somewhat with Touch AC's and DR. In the end I'd rather have special materials modify the Armor bonus of a armor or provide DR based on type of armor. the trick then is cost-valuing such materials.
 


jerichothebard said:
Why only crossbows? What about normal bows? Composite?

If you're going to go that route, doesn't any piercing weapon do much the same thing as a crossbow?

I think that historically crossbows were very effective at piercing armor because they were so damn fast. Bows, not so much.
 

rdpalmer said:
The beauty of d20 is that you can switch games without having to learn a whole new set of rules. However, I've found that many games now are using damage reduction for armor. I want to use a consistent system, so I've been looking into converting the D&D armor into damage reduction. Has anyone successfully implemented a damage reduction system for armor, rather than the standard armor class bonus? I welcome all opinions.

I have a system for this already. Feedback for this would be great. I've never had the opportunity to use it in game, since my players are already suffering from a totally redesigned initiative and hit point system and would buckle under the pressure of more changes. It also includes rules for weapon type vs. armor type, but you can, of course, ignore this. (cut and paste and laziness are to blame)

Damage Reducing Armor

In combat, armor does not actually stop a blow from landing, but instead cushions blows so as to reduce the damage to the wearer, or deflects them in such a way that the force of the blow is directed away from the wearer. Some may prefer an armor system that reflects this.

Under this system, armor provides no bonus to Armor Class (which becomes somewhat of a misnomer, but for simplicity’s sake, this term is still used). The armor rather provides a special form of damage reduction, called Armor Reduction (AR). This works exactly as Damage Reduction (DR) except that it stacks with all forms of DR and it only works against standard attacks from weapons or special attacks that would normally require an attack roll whose DC would be affected by armor (such as the violent thrust option of the telekinesis spell, q.v.). In addition armors have an armor type that affects how different weapon types affect them and there are optional rules for critical threats and damage to armor.

Armor Type

Each armor is split into one of three major types, which affects what types of weapons ignore a portion of the armor’s AR (the weapon type that counters the armor type). The AR of armor is effectively reduced to half its normal value when attacked by a weapon that counters it. When converting armors found in other books, an armor’s AR is equal to its armor bonus. The armor provides no armor bonus under this system.

Plate armor: (full plate, half-plate, banded mail, splint mail) Primarily formed of large pieces of mostly unmalleable material (usually metal) that fit together primarily at joints or anywhere movement needs to be permitted. Plate armor is countered by piercing weapons.

Link armor: (chainmail, scale mail, chain shirt) Formed of small pieces of material that form a clothlike mesh over the body. Link armor is countered by bludgeoning weapons.

Padding armor: (hide, studded leather, leather, padded) Includes armors formed primarily of cloths, skins, or other naturally pliable materials. Not to be confused with padded armor. Padding armor is countered by slashing weapons.

Critical Threats [Optional]

If an attacker rolls a critical threat (but not necessarily a critical hit), the attack automatically ignores AR. This means a critical hit always ignores AR. A weapon such as a dagger is fairly ineffective against an opponent wearing full plate armor, though a wielder with a high strength can sometimes punch through the armor. This optional rule allows a good blow to find its way through the chinks in a particular suit of armor even if the wielder could not normally harm a heavily armored opponent.

Damage to Armor [Optional]

As an optional rule, whenever armor absorbs damage for its wearer, the armor gets damaged instead of the wearer. The armor has a number of hit points equal to 10 times its AR and a hardness based on its material. For every 10 points of damage that the armor absorbs for the wearer, the armor’s AR is decreased by 1. The armor may be repaired at a cost of 10% its base cost times the decrease in AR.

Magical Armor

The enhancement bonus for magical armor does not increase the AR of the armor, but instead increases the Armor Class of the wearer as normal. For example, studded leather +3 would provide an AR of 3 and a +3 bonus to AC. Against slashing weapons, it would only provide an AR of 1, but would still add a +3 enhancement bonus to AC.

Shields

Shields are not affected by this system. They provide a shield bonus to armor class as normal.

Natural Armor

Natural armor is treated as regular armor for the purpose of this system. Just as armor, it grants AR equal to and instead of its natural armor bonus. If a creature with natural armor is wearing conventional armor, attacks are absorbed by armor first. Any damage left over that was not absorbed by the armor is applied to the natural armor. Any damage left over from the natural armor is treated as actual damage.

Natural armor’s type must be determined on a case by case basis by the DM, but the following guidelines may be used. Padding armor is the most common and should be used as the default if a decision cannot be made. Animals with tough hides usually have padding armor. Plate armor is generally reserved for special creatures such as constructs, but unusual plated animals, such as a turtle, also have plate armor. Link armor is generally applied to creatures that are reptilian or fishlike that have protective scales. The DM makes the final decision about what type of armor a creature has.
 
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jerichothebard said:
Why only crossbows? What about normal bows? Composite?

If you're going to go that route, doesn't any piercing weapon do much the same thing as a crossbow?

Historically crossbows were fired at much greater force than bows which allowed them to pierce armor at short ranges affectively which is why as crossbows caught on the use of heavy armor declined. However they typically were not as accurate as a trained bowman due to the quality of the crossbows produced. In game terms, crossbows should get a +2 bonus for releasing the bolt with much greater force than a bow but a -2 to hit because of the way it was designed. Being impaled by either is about the same to the body in terms of damage.

There is a great 2nd edition book, “Combat and Tactics” which I love. I still use it and I run a 3.5 game. In this book, crossbows received no armor piercing ability at long range. (Remember, this is 2nd edition and there are only three ranges: short, medium, and long so the numbers need to be adjust a bit to work with 3.5)

At medium range, the target would suffer a -2 ac penalty if wearing any sort of leather armor (padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor) or mail (chainmail, ringmail, banded mail). This new bonus that your armor provided couldn’t be less than 0.

At short range, any type of armor was fair game and they all suffered a -5 (again, the new value can’t be less than 0).

This armor piercing ability really made it nice to use a crossbow because most people at that time took any sort of bow because it allowed you to fire twice in a round.

Firearms receive the same armor piercing bonus and flails granted a +1 bonus to attacks against shields (negating the usefulness of a shield). There are a number of great things in that book that really make the game more realistic without bogging down game play.
 

There is a variant in UA but when my group tried it, it became very cumbersome. Player’s have a tendency to roll out multiple attacks and then add the values together (assuming both hit). Since DR applies to each strike, you have to get them to announce each damage separately and in doing so, results in more math for on the fly.

Personally, I like the armor DR of Alternity made by TSR. Each armor has three protection categories: low impact, high impact, and energy. Low impact is melee weapons or bows and slings. Almost anything found in D&D except catapults. High impact would be grenades, rifles, and pistols. Energy is plasma cannons and the like. Not sure how to convert this system into 3.5 but I would love to use it.
 

LazerPointer said:
I think that historically crossbows were very effective at piercing armor because they were so damn fast. Bows, not so much.


Crossbows & bows tends to be equally effective. The catch was training people to use a bow (they tended to be peasents who used them for years as hunting tools). Crossbows were easy to use, if a bit slow.
 
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I tend to disagree with Damage Reduction overall. From what I've seen and heard, armor was designed to deflect or stop the energy of an attack. An attack that got through was generally through a weak point in the armor (80% of all kills from an exumed Japanese battle were through the clavicle, a spot notoriously hard to armor because of the need for shoulder mobility) or by weapons designed to defeat the armor (a rapier-like blade was designed in Europe to puncture the seam in the middle of certain breastplates). Even armor used today is designed to stop, not reduce damage. Flak jackets can protect from errant debris, provided you don't get hit in the head. They are useless against an actual attack such as a knife or gun. It doesn't reduce damage: the attack just blows through the armor. Police vests have steel plates over the heart. Bullets don't nessecarily do more damage then melee weapons (a skull crushed by a war club is no longer identifiable. Someone who took a bullet in the head may still have a face intact.) but if it gets through, the officer usually dies. Regardless, if the attack got through, you took full damage based on how well it was placed (you verses him), not by how well the armor protected you (it obviously didn't).
 

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