Dammnation

[Andor]

You weren't making this case, but I don't see the difference. The question of what an NPC demon has to offer an NPC cultist is not clearly answered by the rules IMO although you argue strongly that it is. I just don't see it.

Who said anything about NPCs? There are evil PCs you know.

 

[Nifft]

Who said anything about NPCs? There are evil PCs you know.

Not in my games.

Cheers, -- N

 

[jdrakeh]

The question of what an NPC demon has to offer an NPC cultist is not clearly answered by the rules IMO although you argue strongly that it is.

It very much is in the context of how the default system of acquiring magic works in D&D. Further, whether PCs know how this default system of magic acquisition works or not doesn't have any bearing on the actual mechanics governing such acquisition. Those mechanics are static, barring house-rules.

If you start adding your own house rules to the mix, purposefully altering how the default system of magic acquisition works, this changes the argument. With certain modifications, spells can become believable enticements*. They certainly aren't by default, however (at least not IMO).

*A solution that I myself proposed in my first post to this thread.

 

[mlund]

It very much is in the context of how the default system of acquiring magic works in D&D. Further, whether PCs know how this default system of magic acquisition works or not doesn't have any bearing on the actual mechanics governing such acquisition. Those mechanics are static, barring house-rules.

There is any entire Core Rulebook filled with examples of entities that acquired magic by means that are completely alien to Player Characters. It is called the Monster Manual. The Dungeon Master's Guide also dedicates significant page count to constructing NPCs of all stripes with a system wildly divergent from the one used by PCs.

- Marty Lund

 

[wingsandsword]

Magic only works that way for Paladins. Clerical magic doesn't work that way. Clerics just have to say that they're a cleric and *poof* they get magic — and, to top it off, all of the clerics in the known world get the same magic with only minor variations (regardless of what god they worship). Further, you can learn powerful magics (arguably more powerful magics) in D&D without worshipping a god. This is what I alluded to above.

Clerics might all get the Cleric spell list, but they do have different Domains (or Spheres depending on your edition), and those can have some nifty spells and granted powers in there well above what Clerics might normally get. Death Touch for the Death Domain, Disintegrate and a 1/Day Smite Anything for Destruction Domain, Time Stop and Bluff, Disguise and Hide as class skills for Trickery Domain. Madness domain lets your Spell DCs and bonus spells go sky-high, but at the cost of going pretty much totally insane (effective permanent Wisdom penalty of half your cleric level to everything except spellcasting, effective permanent Wisdom bonus of half your cleric level to spellcasting). Admittedly Evil domain is pretty weak, but there are lots of domains Evil deities can offer that could be tempting.

As for temptation by power. I could see a nice temptation going by a high level Evil Cleric making say, a +5 Unholy Flaming Ghost Touch Adamantine Longsword, normally a list price of 165,315 GP, costing 82657.5 GP to make. Imagine selling it for the low, low price of 90,000 to some young up-and-coming adventurer who just came into town with a big haul of loot or the word is out is looking to buy a new sword? Nice sword, it comes real cheap if you'll just accept the teachings of Loviatar and it can be yours. Ooh, looks like it's hard for you to contain the awesome power of that sword (i.e. the negative level because it's Unholy), we'll give you our special blessings so you can wield it, just repeat those teachings as we lay our hands on your (and cast Atonement/Temptation). C'mon, come to our party tonight, and just think how much damage you can do with that sword now (that you just changed your Alignment to Evil so the sword won't hurt you when you hold it and you effectively sold his soul for about 75,000 GP, and is beholden to dark deities and on the quick path to being a minion of evil). . .

In other words, the ridiculous profit-margin markup of magic items is some place I could see evil religions using as a sales ploy by deeply cutting the markup on items that you have to be Evil (or a member of their faith) to use safely.

In some D&D settings there is no getting divine spells without a patron deity, end-of-story. Forgotten Realms is one. Dragonlance for most of it's history, before the discovery of the Mystics in the 5th age, is another one. The whole plot of the original Dragonlance modules and novels was that without real Gods to worship there was no divine magic to be had.

While it was de-emphasized in 3e, in 1e and 2e it was quite crystal-clear that a deity could revoke a Clerics spellcasting if they displeased him. It isn't simply declaring that you're a cleric of GenericGod and keeping appropriately close to his alignment, it was upholding the tenets of the faith because every day when you pray to rememorize spells you're essentially asking your God for resources to keep on doing what you are doing and if he doesn't approve, No Spells For You.

 

[wingsandsword]

Also, regarding the idea that you don't need to worship a deity to get powerful magic and you can get magics just as powerful without a deity?

Well, Arcane magic is pretty lame for healing. Bards get a little weak healing, but that's about it. If you want to use Arcane Magic to bring somebody back from the dead (and not as an undead), that's going to take a Wish. 9th level spell to emulate a 5th level Cleric spell for Raise Dead, or at the least using a Limited Wish to emulate a Reincarnate for a 4th level Druid spell.

If you want somebody to heal you up after a fight, you're going to need a divine caster to do it in any large scale. That's one of the big carrots that deities have to offer besides afterlives, the ability to ease suffering and injury in the mortal life.

 

[Dire Bare]

It very much is in the context of how the default system of acquiring magic works in D&D. Further, whether PCs know how this default system of magic acquisition works or not doesn't have any bearing on the actual mechanics governing such acquisition. Those mechanics are static, barring house-rules.

If you start adding your own house rules to the mix, purposefully altering how the default system of magic acquisition works, this changes the argument. With certain modifications, spells can become believable enticements*. They certainly aren't by default, however (at least not IMO).

*A solution that I myself proposed in my first post to this thread.

While it's been sorta true for every edition of the game, it's definitely true in 4th Edition. The rules for player characters are not the rules for non-player characters. As a PC, there is no mechanical benefit for me to choose an evil god over a good god, because I'm a PC and I'm a special dude by definition. But that poor schmuck prince who's third in line for the throne and has failed at both "priest school" and "mage school" . . . evil gods and demons have a lot to offer him. They give him dark power which as a DM I can model in a number of ways.

And even for PCs, while there may be no in-game mechanical benefit, there could very well be an awesome story benefit. Why is your otherwise good-natured PC a cultist of Asmodeus? Because when you were young, you couldn't save your sister from the marauding orcs, and you cried out for someone, anyone, to give you the power to do so . . .

 

[Dire Bare]

Who said anything about NPCs? There are evil PCs you know.

The core D&D game does not support evil characters. It's a game of heroic adventure. Now, there's nothing wrong with bending the assumptions of the game and playing evil characters, and in previous editions supplements sometimes gave you crunchy stuff and advice to facilitate this . . . but it is not really what D&D is about at the core.

Should PCs gain mechanical benefits that favor choosing evil deities? I don't think so. If I'm playing an "evil" game, then it's not necessary. If I'm playing a more standard heroic game, then I want my players to choose evil for story reasons rather than min-max reasons.

 

[Barastrondo]

And even for PCs, while there may be no in-game mechanical benefit, there could very well be an awesome story benefit. Why is your otherwise good-natured PC a cultist of Asmodeus? Because when you were young, you couldn't save your sister from the marauding orcs, and you cried out for someone, anyone, to give you the power to do so . . .

Yep. In-character, there's no reason you have to say that your character could have gained power any other way. The player getting free rein to choose whatever class and race he chooses doesn't reflect that the character can pick what race he was born into, and it doesn't have to reflect the idea that the character could have just picked up wizardry or divine power from a non-evil god whenever he wanted.

I had a hankering to place a sorcerer character somewhere who had no casting talent of his or her own, but had somehow had a soul-gem of an ancient wizard mystically embedded into his or her flesh. The character would be an illiterate peasant, and the class would be the remnants of the wizard's knowledge and power flooding his or her brain.

Of course, nothing wrong with a world where you assume that all classes are attainable in-character with nothing but the right ability scores. It's still a choice, though, and it doesn't have to be the only one.

 

[WayneLigon]

So what is it exactly that the dark gods offer that lures people into following them? It's not like evil clerics get more power or cheaper XP than good ones do.

You have two types of basic dark god worshippers.

You have the hard-core guys. These aren't the people doing evil because they think they're doing good things, no, these are the people who have made a conscious decision to oppose everything the gods of light stand for because they think they'll come out on top in the end.

Usually, the dark gods promise these followers strength and power in the afterlife. Evil is, after all, a very unforgiving philosophy. It has little room for friends or compassion or selflessness, so the afterlife to an outsider looks like unending pain and torment. And it is, until you realize that the hard-core people who served the dark gods want to be there. They don't see it as a punishment, they see it as a crucible where the most powerful and most cunning rise in power to become major demons or even demon lords. The weak become paste, which is perfectly agreeable to your basic worshipper of the dark gods.

You also have your second type of worshipper who has been basically lied to. He's the self-delusional type who thinks that the dark gods value his service so no, of course he won't be upside down in a pit of cat crap for 1000 years, he'll be a major demon right at the start. These people are also known as suckers.

You have your third type who is just insane. Related to this is the abusive relationship people.

And you have your fourth type who is doing it to avoid a worse fate. Give a sacrifice to Malar and you won't be eaten by bears on the way home at night. Drizzle some wine to Bane and your baby doesn't get sick. These people do it and serve out of fear and because there is no other choice for them. (Or at least so they think).