Dark Side Point?

[Arrgh! Mark!]

Well, I just had a very successful Star Wars Saga game; lots of combat, investigation, and so on and even (Yes!) buddy banter, and leaving some nice plot hooks for the next adventure.

Just a question - one of the characters, a Jedi focusing on Force powers and the like was wondering if he could use Force Slam on people without getting a Dark Side Point. He would always try to use Force Disarm (But it never worked - it's kinda hard) or persuade his way out of things, and so didn't want to tempt the Dark Side.

The transgression rules are a lot easier on Jedi nowadays, which I don't mind. However, the PC in question used Force Slam on some (evil, criminal, murdering mercenaries that had brutally murdered several sentients) Rodians who were attacking the PC's when confronted.

Seeing as it wasn't a blatantly evil act, but it was causing undue harm (He slammed them all - 27 hit points of damage against 8 hit point thugs) I was tempted but decided not to give him a DS point. (It was our first game - I think I might give them to him and have him use a force point to get rid of it next time)

What do you guys think? Should I have given the darkside point?

 

[drothgery]

What do you guys think? Should I have given the darkside point?

I may be a bit lenient on this, but I think if shooting them with a blaster or charging them with a lightsaber wouldn't draw a DSP, then neither would using Force Slam.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I may be a bit lenient on this, but I think if shooting them with a blaster or charging them with a lightsaber wouldn't draw a DSP, then neither would using Force Slam.

The only thing is that the Force is entirely different...shooting a blaster constantly won't make you go Dark, but abusing the Force will.

I'd say, on a one time thing, no DSP. If it starts to become more and more common, I would then give a DSP. Unlike a lightsaber or a blaster, the Force isn't a tool to be used, instead its almost like a living thing that guides a path.

Also intent is very important. Anger, Fear, Aggression type situation. If those have anything to do with it, DPS that. But even then, constant use of Force Slam would go against using the Force in Defense, but never for Attack.

 

[drothgery]

The only thing is that the Force is entirely different...shooting a blaster constantly won't make you go Dark, but abusing the Force will.

I just don't see why using a power like Force Slam (which for game mechanics purposes is roughly the equivalent of a grenade with a different-shaped area of effect) should have different light/dark implications than tossing the grenade. There are situations where either would draw dark side points; there are situations where either would be fine. But I can't think of any where one would draw dark side points and the other wouldn't.

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

I suppose the fluff of the setting; the light side not being used as a tool?


Hows about this idea - using the force as the first alternative - force slam move object to batter people about and so on on the opening round can be seen as using the force as a tool, which is a very sith perspective and may gain a DSP. (Unless the force is used to prevent a battle, like move object between enemies and good guys, or not used directly on the bad dudes.)

On the other hand, if you use it afterwards, perhaps defending an ally or yourself from an attack in a more urgent situation there's no DSP. Force slams in battle and so on are fine here, as long as there's no rampant aggression - force slamming retreating bad guys.

So - if the use of the force is like it's being used as a 'Tool' - DSP.

If the force is being used to defend/protect/promote peace - no DSP. (Except for lightning and the like.)

Thoughts?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I just don't see why using a power like Force Slam (which for game mechanics purposes is roughly the equivalent of a grenade with a different-shaped area of effect) should have different light/dark implications than tossing the grenade. There are situations where either would draw dark side points; there are situations where either would be fine. But I can't think of any where one would draw dark side points and the other wouldn't.

Honestly...no, its not different on the mechanical end of things.

But setting wise, it is different. Causing direct harm with the Force is just the Dark Side. The real difference is that a blaster or a grenade is a weapon that was built to kill. The Force, though, is the life energy of the entire galaxy and, following Lucas' description of things, the Dark Side is not realy another SIDE, but a corruption of the Light. Almost more like a disease of sorts.

So any use of something like Force Slam is corrupting the Force.

Now, this is a very, very strict look at things, and more the direction the Revised d20 rules took. From a gaming perspective, I really do think that's TOO strict, especially with how DSPs are handled. You don't want to just hand them out for every act like that. That's why I think DSPs should only really be given after continual use of such a tactic.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

The transgression rules are a lot easier on Jedi nowadays, which I don't mind. However, the PC in question used Force Slam on some (evil, criminal, murdering mercenaries that had brutally murdered several sentients) Rodians who were attacking the PC's when confronted.

Seeing as it wasn't a blatantly evil act, but it was causing undue harm (He slammed them all - 27 hit points of damage against 8 hit point thugs) I was tempted but decided not to give him a DS point. (It was our first game - I think I might give them to him and have him use a force point to get rid of it next time)

What do you guys think? Should I have given the darkside point?

In general, no. As you state, the Rodians were attacking the PCs, so he acted in defense of himself and his allies to end the threat as quickly as possible. Sounds like the PC got a heck of a good roll to dish out that much damage. But from the looks of it, they spend a Force Point to ensure the baddies dropped (probably had no idea the Rodians were all so wimpy).

As long as the character's first reaction isn't to break out Force Slam, in that they try other, less-aggressive actions first then I wouldn't give him a dark side point. Provided the character isn't reveling in the power they can unleash.

I applaud his wanting to use Force Disarm, but sadly the power as written is virtually useless.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

So - if the use of the Force is like it's being used as a 'Tool' - DSP.

If the Force is being used to defend/protect/promote peace - no DSP. (Except for lightning and the like.)

Thoughts?

I think that was the intent of the SECR game designers from the word go, and fits with how we see the Jedi act in the movies, where it seems intent is more relevant than the power itself. Force Thrust in and of itself is fairly innocous, but Force Thrust on a guy at the edge of a 100 meter cliff to knock them over is far more likely to garner a DSP than Force Thrust on a guy in the middle of a warehouse being shoved into a packing crate, even if both of them were shooting at you at the time.

Using the Force becuase it's more convienent when other options are readily available is starting down the path of the dark side. Kinda like using D&D fireball spell to swat a fly.

Obi-Wan had no issue breaking out the Jedi Mind Whammy against the stormtroopers on Tatooine to avoid capture or the stormtroopers on the Death Star to avoid detection.

 

[Bagpuss]

I just don't see why using a power like Force Slam (which for game mechanics purposes is roughly the equivalent of a grenade with a different-shaped area of effect) should have different light/dark implications than tossing the grenade. There are situations where either would draw dark side points; there are situations where either would be fine. But I can't think of any where one would draw dark side points and the other wouldn't.

This is how I explain it...

It's hard to kill people. Much of military training is overcoming this natural instinct not to kill your own kind. The more distance you can put between yourself and the target and the less emotionally connected with the concept of killing the easier it becomes, on you mentally.

It's easier to shoot someone when they are a distant target in your cross hairs than it is to stick a knife between their ribs. It is easier to press a button to fire a missile at a tank from an airplane than it is to pull the trigger on a gun.

Using the Force moves this emotional connection with the act another step but in the wrong direction. As a Jedi you can sense the life in all living things. When you use the force to kill or harm you are more involved in the act than if you used a blaster or even the lightsaber.

This is why I more often than not I give a DSP for using the force to directly harm living creatures, but again some Force powers let you put more distance between yourself and the target. Force Grip and Force Slam are direct and I'll always give a DSP for using them on a living target. Move Object to drop a tank on someone you are indirectly using the force to cause harm, Force push someone over a cliff again it's indirect, I'm less likely to give you a darkside point. But again it depends on the circumstances, and how you are playing your character at the time.

In earlier editions of the game we've given out DSP for almost any action if it was clear it was provoked by passion.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think it is wrong to base giving out dark side points out only because of a specific game mechanic used. He could have used a light saber to kill the mooks, or shot them down. If these would have warranted dark side points, okay, give them out. If not, force slam shouldn't either.

The point of the dark side (from a literary point of view) is to make clear how easy it can be to turn evil, and how dangerous it is. The Force makes the path to evil easier, because it gives you power beyond that of others. But using the force to kill someone isn't worse then using a blaster to kill someone, or persuade someone else to kill for you. Tthat you wanted to kill someone because that was the easiest thing to achieve your goals, that's what makes it evil. (If it was the _only_ way to achieve your goal, it depends on what your goal was - if you needed to avoid innocents dying, it might not be evil, possible even good. If you did it to defend yourself, it was probably not evil, but it also wasn't good)

Using the Force moves this emotional connection with the act another step but in the wrong direction. As a Jedi you can sense the life in all living things. When you use the force to kill or harm you are more involved in the act than if you used a blaster or even the lightsaber.

You make a good point here, but Dark Side Points are not the equivalent of a CoC sanity score.
Feeling the pain of others while killing them is only dark-side point worthy if you don't care. A Jedi is forced to kill someone and feels honestly bad about it (not that it will comfort the victim and his friends, but the Jedi knows that, too). A Dark Sider wouldn't care.

When Palpatine tried to get Luke to the dark side, he didn't tempt him to use his jedi powers against him or Vader, he tempted him to kill a (seemingly) helpless foe (Palpatine himself).