Dark Side Point?

[Plane Sailing]

I think it is wrong to base giving out dark side points out only because of a specific game mechanic used. He could have used a light saber to kill the mooks, or shot them down. If these would have warranted dark side points, okay, give them out. If not, force slam shouldn't either.

I think you are missing the point though... the DSP don't depend just upon the attitude of the force user; using the force to kill someone is qualitatively different to using technology to kill someone.

When Yoda gives Luke 'Use the Force 101' in ESB he says

You will know. When you are calm,
at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and
defense, never for attack.

I agree with the others that continual use of Force Slam to hurt people is DSP worthy, as would be using the force excessively and recklessly. On this one occasion I wouldn't penalise the character with a DSP (although as DM I might act as the dark side tempter, reminding him of how quickly it had worked in the past, how powerful he felt, how good he looked in front of his comrades...)

 

[Bagpuss]

Feeling the pain of others while killing them is only dark-side point worthy if you don't care. A Jedi is forced to kill someone and feels honestly bad about it (not that it will comfort the victim and his friends, but the Jedi knows that, too). A Dark Sider wouldn't care.

They can show they care by spending a Force point to atone.

When Palpatine tried to get Luke to the dark side, he didn't tempt him to use his jedi powers against him or Vader, he tempted him to kill a (seemingly) helpless foe (Palpatine himself).

I was just taking about the Force side of things, I'm generous enough in giving out DSP for all sorts of reasons.

Still you raise an interesting case. Palaptine was trying to get Luke to come to the darkside by killing a helpless but evil too the core tyrant of the galactic empire. If killing the Emperor with a lightsaber would have set him on the path to the darkside, how is killing a bunch of Rodian pirates (who probably aren't as evil on the same scale) not worthy of a darkside point? After all if he killed the Emperor countless lives could have been saved.

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

Plane sailing, your advice is awesome and will be used.

Maj-odo "I ignite my..

Me: "What about force slam? It was so easy last time.. to defend your allies.. just use the force and they'll never have to worry about a thing; damn, you looked good saving their butts last time, too."

Interesting discussion so far. The point about the force making you closer to the life of the enemy was interesting; unfortunately it made me re-think my earlier plan.

Use of force slam followed by use of a force point was quite good, though; shows he cares enough to do it when in trouble and so on.

 

[wingsandsword]

Still you raise an interesting case. Palaptine was trying to get Luke to come to the darkside by killing a helpless but evil too the core tyrant of the galactic empire. If killing the Emperor with a lightsaber would have set him on the path to the darkside, how is killing a bunch of Rodian pirates (who probably aren't as evil on the same scale) not worthy of a darkside point? After all if he killed the Emperor countless lives could have been saved.

Because Palpatine was (seemingly) helpless?

Remember in Revenge of the Sith when Anakin has Dooku on his knees then coup de graces him at Palpatine's request? Anakin knew the moment he did it that he made a mistake and it violated the Jedi code, even that close to being gone he knew that was a blatant mistake.

The Rodians were in a fight with the Jedi at the time and was an aggressor capable of inflicting lethal injury, not sitting there unarmed or on their knees surrendering, that's the difference.

 

[Bagpuss]

Right so killing in defense of yourself is not worthy of a DSP, but killing in the defense of thousands is?

You raise another interesting point Anakin realises that killing Dooku was wrong after the event. A point illustrated again when Mace Windu is about to execute the Emperor in much the same way Anakin executed Dooku, but he steps in.

Would Mace have got a DSP for killing the Emperor perhaps? Yet Anakin saves the Emperor, and actually falls further to the darkside.

I think the point if any I'm trying to make here, is that anything written in the rulebook about allocating DSP's can only be taken as a guide. Sometimes a character can be acting for good, and still gain DSP, and other times he can be acting for right reasons not earn a DSP yet still advance the cause of evil.

Dooku after all was perhaps right when he left the Jedi Order, the fact the Senate was corrupt and the Jedi were pawns of it, he probably left on the best of intentions. Anakin was perhaps right to stop Mace executing the Emperor.

There aren't any real hard and fast rules (IMHO), so the examples I gave above and what I say below are just general guidelines that I use.

• If you directly use the force to cause harm I am more likely to give a DSP than if you indirectly use the force.
• If you indirectly use the force to cause harm I am more likely to give a DSP than if you use mundane means.
• If you use the force to do something, I will inspect the motivations and results of the action more than if you use mundane means.
• If you are Force Sensitive I will inspect the motivations and results of any action more than if you are not Force Sensitive.
• I am more likely to give a DSP if you are Force Sensitive, and even more likely if you used the Force (either a Force Point or the Use the Force skill).
• It is entirely possible that two characters can be involved in the same action with the same motivations and one get a DSP and the other not, due to these guidelines.

Often in these sort of debates people bring up the example of Luke using Force Grip on the Gamorrean as he enters Jabba's Palace, some claim it as proof that Force Grip can be used on living targets without giving a Darkside point. Other say he used Mind Trick to make it think it was choking so he didn't get a DSP.

To me it doesn't matter if he used Mind Trick or Force Grip, Luke got a DSP there, he probably atoned for it later. Just because you pick up the odd DSP doesn't mean you are a darksider, and at that point in the films Luke was acting out of fear for and love of his friends, and anger at Jabba. He used the Force to get round the Gamorrean because it was quicker and easier. He toys with the darkside throughout RotJ (why do you think he is wearing black?).

But then Jedi Philosophy is a effectively a religion, and you always get arguements about religion. I see myself in the less moderate camp. If you want to play it differently in your game feel free....

But of course mine is the one true path.

Lucas was probably a bit more moderate than me, and because of that he fell to the darkside and released Phantom Menace.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

My point is that it shouldn't be the "tool" a Jedi uses for his gains. (Even if the force isn't to be considered a tool at all).
Yoda's only puts emphasis on the force because it is one of the main features of being a Jedi, and the main power a Jedi is in risk of abusing.

They can show they care by spending a Force point to atone.

That might actually be an even better idea.

Right so killing in defense of yourself is not worthy of a DSP, but killing in the defense of thousands is?

Killing the Emperor wouldn't defend thousands, because the Death Star and the Imperial Navy didn't the Emperor at the time of the scene. The Death Star shot Rebels out of the sky without of the Emperor. Killing the Emperor would only have been out of anger, hatred and a desire for revenge.

But if your point is he should probably get Dark Side points for either action, I tend to agree. Life isn't fair. Sometimes you are forced to do things that aren't good. But never use this knowledge as an excuse, not if you want to stay good in your heart.