Dark Sun 3.5

[Najo]

I am a huge Dark Sun fan. I ran campaigns back when the original brom era setting released. I was turned off by the revised box set. I can respect but do not like the athas.org material (as it embraces the revision era to much). As for the Paizo take on the setting in Dragon and Dungeon, there was things I liked story progession wise. But rules wise I agree with all of the complaints Dave Noonan brought up about the bard, paladin, monk and sorcerer, about them cutting his weapon breakage rules etc.

Now I am running a 3.5 game. I want to set it in Brom era Dark Sun. I am home brewing the special rules I need, as most of the material out there does not capture the right feel to me.

So here is what I am asking all of you kind fellow gamers...

If WOTC did an official Dark Sun book based on the Brom era (pre revision, pre Borys death) Dark Sun, what material would be in that sourcebook that when plugged onto the 3 core books it gave a GM and their players the essentials to run a dark sun game. All I need is the game material, like class changes or sub levels, skills changes, feats, magic rules - like defiling, prestige classes, spells, monsters, and so on.

Just list (and offer suggested write ups too if you like) the key things. Pull from the Original Dark Sun boxed set, the first supplements, Dragon Kings and the other stuff around that time. Ignore the death of Borys, and anything that came with the revised Dark Sun and forward.

 

[Wik]

Yeah! I was just talking to Blargney like, yesterday, about Dark Sun 3.5!

First off, the Monsters from the Dungeon magazines are excellent. Highly recommend 'em.

What I think would be necessary for DS 3.5

Classes
Templar - I'd use a variant on the Cloistered Cleric, and write up Domain Lists for each Sorcerer King. Cuz that'd be cool.
Bard - Use a psionic Bard variant. The bard from Athas.org is kind of neat, too.
Cleric - Choose one elemental domain, and one other domain. Easy enough.
Druid - I'd use the Shapeshifting Variant from PHB 2, but that's personal preference.
Fighter
Monk - Maybe as a PrC (the Villichi?). I dunno.
Paladin - No. Get rid of it.
Sorcerer & Wizard - Use as is.
Ranger - Spell less ranger variant from Comp. Warrior.
Barbarian - Use as is.
Rogue - use as is.
All Psionic Classes use as presented.

From other sources, I'd think Scout, Shugenja (hell, they could almost replace clerics!), maybe Swashbuckler (if you renamed it and dropped the flavour), and Marshall.

As for Races - I like what Dragon did, but I'd get rid of the LAs. Somehow.

I'd like to see wild talents rolled randomly again. Even if you have to burn a feat to get 'em.

Piecemeal Armour would be great (was that in early DS? I can't remember)

As for Defiling - just have Defilers cast spell at a higher Caster Level, depending on where they defile. And they can use those bonus levels to power metamagic effects that they have.

 

[Greg K]

I love Dark Sun. It is my favorite published DND setting. However, I think that if WOTC did a 3.5 Dark Sun, the in-house team would ruin it just like they did in that article. They seem unable to comprehend that you don't have to include or make room for everything just because it appeared in the PHB or another supplement-what you leave out defines the setting just as much as what you add in.

 

[Wik]

I dunno if a good translation is really all that possible. DS seems to be reliant on the 2e ruleset, in a lot of ways. The sheer power level of 3e compared to 2e makes the survival-focus of DS a bit harder to pull off.

That being said, I think if you wanna do DS, it's pretty much on your own. Moreso than any other setting, Dark Sun relies on individual GMs. My Dark Sun is going to be a lot different than yours - people seem to have different views on what the world just happens to be about.

 

[Yair]

I have to ask: what did the revision do to the setting? What seperates the "Brom era" from the "revised boxed set"?

 

[Wik]

I have to ask: what did the revision do to the setting? What seperates the "Brom era" from the "revised boxed set"?

The "revised" setting made a few changes to the defiling rules, which made them a bit more complex (a lot of people liked the changes; I kept the old way, which made Defilers progress quicker).

It also added a few new races which I felt diluted the setting a bit (Aarakocra, which are usually evil in the setting, but introduced good tribes; they did the same for Pterrans).

Many of the sorcerer kings had been killed off in the Prism Pentad novel series; the revised boxed set updated this. I think, in many cases, they made poor changes for a game world (for example, in Urik in the revised set, the city pretty much closed itself off from the world - kind of silly, if you're playing in a world where there are only seven cities... one less is a big thing).

It also dropped Templars as a PC class - probably the biggest mistake, in my mind, since it made it very hard to insert templars into a campaign if you lacked the original setting (as I did, when I started out).

Introduced a few new cities, one that catered to adventurers (what!?), and another that had a sorcerer king who had seen the light and was trying to enact a greening process.

It was also a bit more vocal in it's stance against slavery (in Dark Sun, slaves are common, but as the product line went on, there definately became a theme that slavery was something that the PCs should oppose. While that's fun and all, I always thought it was cooler to have the PCs just accept slavery as a fact of life. A lot of adventures were written with the idea that the PCs would just naturally try to overthrow slavery whenever possible, which is something that always bugged me)

Taken as a whole, all these things made Dark Sun seem less... dark. Not that it was a bad "revision", or anything. It really did introduce some big improvements on the old system (especially regarding psionics; I was also a huge fan of the introduction of the trader class as a "core" Dark Sun class). Plus, I think it was the best campaign supplement ever (the maps were great, especially the cloth map).

 

[Najo]

I have to ask: what did the revision do to the setting? What seperates the "Brom era" from the "revised boxed set"?

The brom era is a ruined world, ruled over by tyrant sorcerer kings. It is full of mystery and a lost past. The dragon is as much a myth as reality, since no one has seen the great beast, just heard folklore of travellers or know of the offerings sent out by the kings into the desert to appease the fury of this monster. The world is unforgiving and secrets lie in its ruins, secrets that hint at a lost age and a more noble past. Each of the races all hint of this past, and show the scars of whatever ruined the world in their blood and cultures. Subtle differences set the mood of Dark Sun from typical D&D. Scavenged armor, weapons made from bone and obsidian, slave tribes, the thri-kreen as a player race, unqiue monsters (no typical vampires, werewolves, dragons etc). A world where water and metal are more precious than honor.

Another aspect of Dark Sun that is overlooked is the political agendas. Scheming Sorcerer Kings with secrets of an ancient and dark magic. The templars and their control over the social levels within the city states of their kings. The nobles and freemen, and their conflicts with the slaves and nomads of the wastes. The races with their varied differences.Wizards are outcast and hunted. Secret Societies seeking power keep their ancient secrets protected or selfishly coveted. I can go on and on.

When they revised Dark Sun, many of these story elements were ruined or turned into something silly. A planet ruled over by psionic halflings with organic cybernetics. Killing the one and only dragon (who would be a 20th level wizard/ 20th level psion/ 10th level dragon and is the mythic symbol of the setting) by stabbing him in the nose with a magic sword by a 18th level gladiator. Bringing in bird and lizard men (taking something from the Thri Kreen and making the other races lose their hints of a previous age where their ancestors had honor and nobility). Windsurfing (yes windsurfing - one surfboards with sails and all) halflings in a hidden last sea. Artwork that lost the mood and feel of Broms work. Killing off half of the Sorcerer Kings (beings that defined the setting and were the most power creatures upon the world who lived for over a thousand years are slaughered one after another by dumb choices and low level heroes in the last book of the prism pentad). You can look at the artwork on the covers of Slave Tribes, Valley of Dust and Fire, Dragon's Crown and Dragon Kings and then look at books like the Will and the Way, Preservers and Defilers, Mind Lords of the Last Sea and the Revised Dark Sun setting and see exactly what I am talking about. If after that you still don't get it, well...not much hope your will

 

[Wik]

I think you have a few things messed up.

For starters, Brom did art for the revised setting as well. He just didn't do all of it.

The brom era has a ruined world, found ruled over by tyrant sorcerer kings. The world is full of mystery and a lost past, the dragon is as much a myth as noone has seen the great beast, just heard stories or know of the offerings sent out into the desert by the citystates. The world is unforgiving but secrets lie in its waste and the ruins of a lost age speak of a more noble past. The races are all hint of this time, and show the scars of whatever ruined the world. Subtle things and differences set the mood of this setting, scavenged armor, weapons made from bone and obsidian, slave tribes, the thri-kreen as a player race, unqiue monsters (no typical vampires, werewolves, dragons etc). A world where water and metal are more precious than honor.

This is all in the Revised setting, too. The problem with the revised setting was they added something of a history. While I think the revised history of Athas is kind of lame, too, I like the idea behind it - Fans wanted history to their world, and the designers obliged. And they did it in such a way to make the game unique.

In any case, all of those things that you say are "brom era" are just as present in the revised setting.

Another aspect of Dark Sun that is overlooked is the political agendas. Tyrant sorcerer kings with secrets of an ancient and dark magic. The templars and their control over the social levels within the domains of their kings. The nobles and freemen, and their conflicts with the slaves and nomads of the wastes. The races with their differences. Elves vs Thrikreen. Rural halflings vs society. Scoiety vs Arcane Magic. Druids vs Defilers. Secret Societies, ancient secrets being protected or selfishly coveted. I can go on and on.

Here is where I really disagree with you. I think the revised setting had even MORE of this present. I mean, look at Tyr alone - it had the ziggurat problem in the original setting, but in the revised, it had so many conflicts between power groups that you could literally run a whole campaign without ever leaving the city. And every city-state got a similar, in-depth treatment.

There was a whole slew of information for running politically-based games; probably more than any other contemporary 2e setting.

I think a more accurate complaint you could make about Original vs. Revised would be the fact that in Revised, there was just a lot more detail (since each city-state in Revised got two or three pages, whereas in the original, each city got maybe two paragraphs, if memory serves).

When they revised Dark Sun, many of these story elements were ruined or turned into something silly. A planet ruled over by psionic halflings with organic cybernetics.

No argument there.

Killing the one and only dragon (the mythic symbol of the setting) by stabbing him in the nose with a magic sword by a 18th level gladiator.

I had no real problem with killing the dragon. What I did have a problem with was just how much TSR would tie novels into their game world. Thank god Eberron doesn't do anything similar. I wholly agree with you here, but I don't think it's a design fault; just a problem with TSR at the time. Novels sold money, and they had to make the novels Heroic. And that bled into the setting.

If you gave the novels a few more years, I'm pretty sure Athas would have turned into Toril. Only, you know, cool.

Bringing in bird and lizard men (taking somehthing from the Thri Kreen and making the races lose their hints of a previous age where their ancestors had honor and nobility).

Don't quite get what you're trying to say here. First off, the Aarakocra and Pterrans were both introducted BEFORE the Revised set; revised just made them character races (which I was alright with, although I think it was unnecessary to make good version races of a typically evil species, just so you could justify their presence as a PC race).

Second, where's this "honour and nobility" thing coming from? Elves had it hinted at in Original, true, but that was never really dropped. If it was dropped, it was due more to space constraints than out of any conscious design choice - hell, Elves in the novels always had this "previous honour" thing going for them, right till the end.

Windsufering halflings in a hidden last sea.

Techincally, the "windsurfing" halflings were found on the Jagged Cliffs, and they were a little cheesy (although I remember loving them when I was 15 or so... we played a Jagged Cliffs campaign that was a lot of fun). The Last Sea was an entirely different place, that had nothing to do with Halflings.

Artwork that lost the mood and feel of Broms work.

I actually like how the revised setting approached art. It seemed a lot more "tribal". And cooler.

Killing off half of the Sorcerer Kings (beings that defined the setting and were the most power creatures upon the world who lived for over a thousand years are slaughered one after another by dumb choices and low level heroes in the last book of the prism pentad).

Yeah, that kind of sucked. But, in the revised setting's defence, the removal of the SK's didn't really make things better (except, maybe, for Tyr). Think about it:

Raam - City absolutely devastated. Different factions tear it to pieces in gang warfare.
Balic - Three factions try to control the city; a limited democracy tries to get running, but flounders.
Draj - A false sorcerer king is put into power, controlled by a psionic elite.

Really, an argument could be made that the death of the SK's made the cities COOLER. Especially Draj - I didn't like it in the Original set.

You can look at the artwork on the covers of Slave Tribes, Valley of Dust and Fire and Dragon Kings and then look at books like the Will and the Way, Preservers and Defilers, Mind Lords of the Last Sea and the Revised Dark Sun setting and see exactly what I am talking about. If after that you still don't get it, well...not much hope your will

Meh. Truth be told, I didn't like too many of the covers in any Dark Sun product, with the exception of the Revised setting, and the Veiled Alliance. But you're right - there was an art shift. That's really a matter of personal taste.

***

Anyways, my point in all this is that while the two sets presented the setting in a different way, the changes were a lot more subtle than "it made the setting stupid". The first three years I played Dark Sun, it was entirely in the Revised setting, and at no point did I ever say "man, this is dumb".

All that being said, I do agree with you - The original setting was better. Just not for the reasons you say.

 

[Cergorach]

Najo isn't the only one who feels that the pre-revised setting was more to their liking. That he calls it 'The Brom Era' might not be very accurate, but it illustrates the point wonderfully. A setting isn't just text for a lot of folk, it's also the presentation of that setting (including art, layout, colors, but also sequence of content).

For me Darksun will always be the original boxed set, with all the additional material to be used as the DM sees fit (as always). I even have a use for the revised boxed set, but instead of pouring all that into the players, maybe they'll find some vague hints...

 

[Najo]

I am going to keep my reply simple as I like to get back to my original question to the community - input on what the content of an official Brom era Dark Sun CS book would be.

I own all of the dark sun material, both pre revised and revised. I have print outs of the athas.org stuff. I own the Paizo material (defilers, 2 dungeons worth of monsters, 1 dragon wiht players guide, and the rules for the dragon kings issue). I originally ran Dark Sun for over 5 years, through three different campaigns with over 48 different players in that time. I have read most of the novels.

The brom era produced the prism pentad, most of Dark Sun's history came from those five books. The Dark Lens, the Cruelean Storm, the Origins of Rajaat and the Champions, the creation of Borys, the Cleansing Wars etc. All of which is good stuff.

Likewise, the ivory triangle cover Nibenay and Gulg's political situations and history in detail. Urik was covered in the Crimson Legion novel and Road to Urik adventure. Balic was covered in the novels and adventures too. Dragon Kings had more information on the cities and the history of Athas.

Almost everything the Revised boxed set had it got from the Brom Era materials and gathered it together and then added on to. Some of what it added was ok, some was really terrible.

As for the art, Brom worked at TSR during the Brom Era. They based the setting off of his sketches. Read the origins of the setting in the 30 years of D&D book, the Worlds of TSR book and the Dragon issue with the defilers. Brom was Dark Sun, and you can see it up till he no longer was doing art for them. All of the books were graced by his majestic, beautiful yet brutal, alien world of Athas. Then the revised stuff started creeping in and BAM, we have surfing halflings and living cybernetics (which shadowrun released bioware that same year)

As for the jagged cliffs, those were hanggliding halflings there. The surfing ones were at the Last Sea.