Dark Sun 3.5

[megamania]

I've always wanted to see a 3.5 version of the halfling's biotech. I think it was by far the most interesting part of the DS universe...

Not easy. I looked at Necromancer's Chaos Tech and Eberron's Artificers and still have not found a good thing to modify.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I've always wanted to see a 3.5 version of the halfling's biotech. I think it was by far the most interesting part of the DS universe...

Whereas I thought the introduction of "magic biotech" into DS was one of the major factors that turned me off the Revised edition of the setting. I'm not fond of the concept in general, but there are settings in which it can work. I felt DS wasn't one of them, and it was an awful fit.

And this--not that either of us is right or wrong, but the widely disparate opinions, and the fact that different people prefer different incarnations of the setting--is why, much as I'd love to see it, a full-fledged 3.5 DS book probably wouldn't succeed.

 

[Wik]

And this--not that either of us is right or wrong, but the widely disparate opinions, and the fact that different people prefer different incarnations of the setting--is why, much as I'd love to see it, a full-fledged 3.5 DS book probably wouldn't succeed.

Exactly. My Dark Sun is entirely different than your Dark Sun, whereas I'm imagine my Eberron is fairly similar to your Eberron.

There's just something about the Setting that has every gamemaster making their own little tweaks, and choosing their own areas to focus on.

 

[bowbe]

Not easy. I looked at Necromancer's Chaos Tech and Eberron's Artificers and still have not found a good thing to modify.

Chaos Tech was Malhavoc, though still of Sword&Sorcery imprint.

P.S. Darksun was cool but it is as has been said, most parties looked pretty much identical, a Mul fighter, half giant gladiator, elf ranger i think were the components of most of our party.

The only halflings I can stand to this day are the Dark Sun ones.

Case

 

[Dark Psion]

If you want magical bio-tech, check out Monte's Chaoistech book.

I have toyed with going back to Dark Sun, but have had trouble getting the balance just right.

For the Dark Sun Psionic Bard, you could modify the Wilder a bit or give the Lurk a different list of Augments, some based on personal manipulation instead stealth.

My idea for defiling is simple, all Wizards and Sorcerers have full access to all Meta-magic feats and can apply them to any spell at any time. Of course if you do, you defile the area, doing damage as per the number of levels the feat would add to the spell. Preservers are those that learn the feat and apply it normally, but even then, would you risk casting a Maximised fireball to save your friends if it was the only way?

 

[Najo]

I can understand all that, and I'll make my reply to your reply short, to get back to the original question.

I'm a Dark Sun nut as well, and I can see where you're going with this. And I generally agree - the revised setting ISN'T as good as "brom era". That being said, it annoys me when people focus squarely on the bad things about the set, and then forget all the awesome good things found in it -

Things like the bandit states, Eldaarich and the city to the south whose name I always forget, and the Last Sea (I like it, I Really do).

All in all, I think the revised set did a fairly good job. It is still my favourite Dark Sun product. It was my first Dark Sun purchase (my first campaign setting purchase, too!) And yeah, I love it.

That being said, I think I got a little harsh last night, taking apart your post like that. Apologies, and all that jazz - I shouldn't post at, like, 1 am. Especially when I more or less agree with the general gist of what you're saying.

no worries, I can respect your point of view. Hey, its great to see we are both in love with such an awesome setting. Your right that the revised setting still had alot of those seeds that came out of the original. Your input btw is great

 

[Najo]

Whereas I thought the introduction of "magic biotech" into DS was one of the major factors that turned me off the Revised edition of the setting. I'm not fond of the concept in general, but there are settings in which it can work. I felt DS wasn't one of them, and it was an awful fit.

And this--not that either of us is right or wrong, but the widely disparate opinions, and the fact that different people prefer different incarnations of the setting--is why, much as I'd love to see it, a full-fledged 3.5 DS book probably wouldn't succeed.

If anything that shows how much they drifted away from the feel of the brom era vs the later one. But still, I think that some of the revised era can be brom-ified and made to work. The life shaping can be toned down and made into something more mysterous, hinting at it being one of the causes for ruining the world.

 

[Wik]

You know, I remember reading an article in DRAGON that came out just before the Revised setting hit the shelves (it's what convinced me to buy it). It more or less explained why they did a revised setting, and it was really well written. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[Najo]

Alright.

We would first see race write-ups, done similarly to the Eberron campaign setting. Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen would either be Level Adjustment races (and we'd keep the "Start at 3rd level rule), or they would be monster classes. I actually like the idea of monster classes, but I'm the only one, probably. Muls could probably get away with LA +0, if you made them roughly comparable to the half-orc or something.

(were it me, I'd drop the huge stats that were found in Dark Sun; their original intention was to give each PC some bonuses due to high stats, which typically showed up around 15 or so. Since a character in 3e gets a boost at a score of 12, I don't think the 4d4+4 method is necessary anymore).

Then we'd go to classes, with variants for many classes that subbed out spellcasting. Bards would become psionic, or maybe more rogueish (which is what they did in the Brom Era). Sorcerers and Wizards would be as is, although I'd add a feat that they could take that would allow them to add Bluff and Sleight of Hand to their skill list, so they can conceal somatic components - I'd also drop the familiars entirely, and have some ability replace them (if you want a familiar, you can burn a feat).

Druids would get a bit of a change, using the shapeshifting variant from PHB 2. And I'd mess around with their spell list a bit (or do what Eberron did for druids, and have feats add spells to their spell list, depending on what focus you chose for your druid; a volcano druid who took, the feat would have different powers than a silt sea druid). I'd also drop the "tied to the land" feature that druids in 2e DS had - I hated that, and it stopped me from playing druids on Athas.

Clerics would have to choose an element, and select their domains from a list approved for that element. As I was saying earlier, Shugenja could be a good replacement for clerics, if you added some more support spells. Templars could easily just be clerics with a different spell list, although I'd personally want something.... more.

I wouldn't make a gladiator class, although I wouldn't object to one, either. If there was one, I'd say d12, feat every third level, a little bit of unarmed combat abilities, the ability to switch weapon focus feats focus to a different weapon (like the warblade), and some gimmick ability (gets better as fight goes on, gets better as he gets more wounded, or some sort of debuff intimidation attack).

I *would* like to see a Trader class, or at least a noble/aristocrat class. SOmething to remind players that DS isn't just about killing stuff. That there's a huge political undercurrent.

Obviously a bunch of psionic classes.

Feats... I'd add a bunch, obviously. I'd like to see background feats for each city-state (Urik Military training - You fought in Hamanu's armies. You are proficient in a martial weapon of your choice, and gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude Saves, for example). A few feats that could indicate rank (so that a templar with the right feats would have a high status within the templar hierarchy, whereas a PC templar that focused on metamagic feats might not gain as high a status, making templars a bit different from other divine casters). Obviously some feats that tie PCs to organizations like the Veiled Alliance, specific Trading Dynasties, the Order, the Villichi (I think a Villichi feat, taken at 1st level only, would be AWESOME).

Crazy rule variants I'd like to see:

1) Wild Talents rolled on a random table. Loved that.
2) Weapon Breakage on a natural 1 - give a flat percentage that it happens when a 1 is rolled, though, because we lost so many weapons originally to this rule, that our PCs would carry several weapons into combat, which just got silly. A Mul with 5 claymores is kind of dumb.
3) Defiling Rules that are simple. I believe I already mentioned how I'd do it.
4) Piecemeal Armour rules. A bit complex, but whatever.
5) A nitpick - in original DS, it was pretty much a given that you'd use bone weapons - they were some of the cheapest weapons, definately the best non-metal weapon, and the lightest. I'd like to see a bit more of a balancing between the weapons, so that wealthier PCs could have debates over which material is better - bone or stone. I'd also like to see more materials to choose from.

Obviously, there would be new spells (which I'm not a huge fan of) and magical items (Potion Fruits, revisited!) New Prestige Classes would be good, if they made only a few. Just off the top of my head, I can think of:

Master Gladiator
Tribal Leader (leader of a slave tribe, a warrior who buffs other warriors with shouts)
Dynasty Trader (which would work if there wasn't a trader core class)
Templar Emissary (more or less a way to justify Templar PCs - I made every templar PC in my game an emissary)
Giant-Slayer (from Balic region)
Assassin (Hell, this could be "bard", and get rid of the bard core class!)
and a psionic PrC of some sort.

As for setting details itself, I'd set the game right after Tyr became free, because it is a good campaign element. I've run games both before and after Tyr's liberation, and there's just so much more that you can do when Tyr is free (whether or not you're actually in Tyr). I'd also give each city at least two pages, and done in a similar way to the Eberron Campaign setting (only without the massive spoilers). Terrain info on each terrain type, as was done in both settings, would be great. And then quick, half-page comments on most of the major areas - maybe a bit longer for some important areas.

Anyways, that's how I would do it.

I agree with 99% of that. Good stuff. I would add the following PRC:

Arch Defiler
Athasian Bard
Caravan Guardian
Dune Trader
Elemental Champion
Gladiator
Halfling Scout
High Templar
Mercenary Legionnaire
Practitioner of the Way
State-bound Nobleman
Thrikreen Slayer
Veiled One
Wasteland Raider

I would do the changes to the base classes through substitution levels. Other than that we hit on similar things or you nailed stuff I missed. Very good work

 

[Wik]

You know, I remember reading an article in DRAGON that came out just before the Revised setting hit the shelves (it's what convinced me to buy it). It more or less explained why they did a revised setting, and it was really well written. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Ah. No such luck. Tried diggin up the issue (I think it's 220?), and didn't find it. I must've lost it in the move.

More or less, it explained the need for a revision, and really talked about how, after a few years in the original set, people had explored the Tyr region from corner to corner (which is true; the original setting was pretty small), and how the revised setting was something like eight times the size.

and there were some other things. I just remember reading it, seeing hte pictures (there was an aerial fight with a mul on a bee fighting some other lizard guys on bees that was kind of cool) that really caught my imagination.