Dark Sun 4e: Can it work?

[Knightfall]

Forked from: Dragonlance 4e in 2010?

...to avoid a threadjack. Yes, it was my thread to start but still.

I keep seeing this, but...

Part of Athas' schtick was that it was isolated from other planes. The only planar connections, IIRC, were elemental. And for those purposes, the Elemental Chaos works just as well as four separate elemental planes.

So really, why does it matter what cosmology may exist beyond Athas, if Athas can't reach it and isn't affected by it?

Yes, but I severely doubt that WotC will isolate Athas from the PoL cosmology, especially if it ends up tied directly to the Elemental Chaos.

If the best case scenario happens and WotC keeps Athas isolated from the new cosmology, then I'll be happy. Even if they make it possible for a DM to "choose" to keep Athas isolated, I'll be happy.

However, my "gut feeling" tells me that Dark Sun isn't going to remain isolated in a 4e version of the campaign setting. I have this horrible thought of the campaign world getting invaded by Dragonborn and Tieflings and gnomes and orcs appearing out of nowhere. [Blech.] (Hell, I'd rather see warforged in a revised Dark Sun than tieflings.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

See, I'm a big Dark Sun fan myself, and I agree that "opening up" the cosmology would be a mistake.

But I don't think it would be impossible to work in dragonborn or tieflings into the setting. They'd require some flavor changes, yes. But there are plenty of draconic-themed characters and magics in which to work in the dragonborn, and there are plenty of evil forces/entities to which one could tie the tieflings.

Ultimately, I fully agree that it's a mistake to bend every setting to fit the new rules 100%. But, I also think it's a mistake to refuse to consider bending at all. Sometimes, the new stuff can be made to fit without violating the setting's aesthetics.

Frankly, if/when there's ever a DS4E, I think the dragonborn and the tieflings are going to be far from the most controversial mechanical issues. I reserve that honor for the question of whether (and if so, how) to include the core rules cleric and paladin.

 

[Knightfall]

See, I'm a big Dark Sun fan myself, and I agree that "opening up" the cosmology would be a mistake.

But I don't think it would be impossible to work in dragonborn or tieflings into the setting. They'd require some flavor changes, yes. But there are plenty of draconic-themed characters and magics in which to work in the dragonborn, and there are plenty of evil forces/entities to which one could tie the tieflings.

Ultimately, I fully agree that it's a mistake to bend every setting to fit the new rules 100%. But, I also think it's a mistake to refuse to consider bending at all. Sometimes, the new stuff can be made to fit without violating the setting's aesthetics.

Frankly, if/when there's ever a DS4E, I think the dragonborn and the tieflings are going to be far from the most controversial mechanical issues. I reserve that honor for the question of whether (and if so, how) to include the core rules cleric and paladin.

I agree. It can be done, as long as it is done right. And I don't mind bending a little jsut not so much that a 4e Dark Sun isn't truly Dark Sun anymore.

Dragonborn could easily become the dray. Tieflings could simply be another spawned race from the Tower/Spire (dang, I forget what it's called).

Gnomes really shouldn't exist and neither should orcs but I don't think WotC will leave them out. Hmm, perhaps some of the gnomes retreated to the Feywild of Athas and were trapped there. I could see that. And it would be REAL hard for them to come back.

Gith are Athas's orcs, IMO. That race fills that niche.

You're right though, adding paladins and standard clerics into the mix will ruin the setting for me. I can see warlocks and warlords in Dark Sun but not paladins or standard clerics.

And there can't be any deities. How are they going to handle that? Are the Dragon Kings going to be actual deities? That wouldn't work, IMO. I could see adding elemental Primordials as patrons but only one for each element.

It's a tricky setting to convert.

 

[Irda Ranger]

"opening up" the cosmology would be a mistake.

But I don't think it would be impossible to work in dragonborn or tieflings into the setting.

++

The dray were Dragonborn-ish, and there were plenty of corrupt races (even if they weren't corrupted by devils, but that's where the flavor changes come in.

Frankly, if/when there's ever a DS4E, I think the dragonborn and the tieflings are going to be far from the most controversial mechanical issues. I reserve that honor for the question of whether (and if so, how) to include the core rules cleric and paladin.

DS has elemental Clerics and Druids though. Plus, the need to design a Gladiator would be a great excuse to make a Martial Controller and allow for a all-Martial party.

No Paladins though. Booooo.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think--once again, with the proper changes--that clerics and paladins could fit.

Hear me out before you throw something.

A few flavor tweaks, maybe a new build and some options to swap out "radiant" for other energies is all you'd need to transform clerics of gods into clerics of the elements.

And as far as paladins, let's see. It's a fighter-type (a defender) who makes use of both weapons and powers granted by a higher being.

Sounds like templars in DS to me, again with just a minor modicum of reflavoring.

 

[Spatula]

Could Dark Sun work in 4e? Sure. I think in some ways, 4e might be a really great fit for it (martial "healers", psionics that is balanced and has its own niche, not too hard to do away with armor completely).

Is WotC interested in producing a setting that is different from the core assumptions of the 4e PHB, DMG, & MM? No, I don't think that they are.

The days of wildly strange and different settings are long gone. I hope Wizards stays far, far, away from publishing any Dark Sun books, or any other old unusual setting.

 

[Mark Hope]

Dark Sun wasn't actually a closed cosmology - it was just very difficult to get from Athas to anywhere else. It was connected to the elemental planes (although they were fairly different from the standard 2e elemental planes). It also had a plane called the Black (a bit like the plane of Shadow) and a plane called the Gray (which was where all the dead went to linger until dissolution).

The Gray cut Athas off from the Outer Planes, but the Outer Planes were still there. City by the Silt Sea explicitly features Baatezu and the Blood War. There's a farastu in Merchant House of Amketch, a nabassu in Dragon's Crown and the kreen have a mythology that incorporates Caina (which they call Kano). There's also a very cool piece of art in Dragon Kings of a wizard summoning a glabrezu. The connections are definitely there.

Of course, there are many DS fans who prefer to keep the cosmology closed, and it's very easy to do, and doing so makes for a very cool feel to the setting, leaving Athas extremely isolated. But it's not the case that having a more open cosmology in DS4e would run contrary to prior canon. It would be important, imho, to retain the closed feel, however, by having a plane such as the Gray make travel to the Astral/Outer Planes/whatever extremely difficult.

As for dragonborn, the 3e version of that race was, imho, largely inspired by the dray from Dark Sun, who were created from other races and transformed into draconic beings. Dragonborn seem to be their own race now in 4e, but you could probably use their stats with no problem.

Tieflings as one of the New Races from the Pristine Tower could work, but it is rare that New Races breed true or last beyond a generation or two. Mind you, there is nothing to stop WotC from revising that particular piece of canon and deciding that at least one race has bred true over time. When Paizo did their conversion of Dark Sun, one of the coolest elements was how they incorporated the elan into the setting, so I believe that changes of that type can work. Not guaranteed, but certainly possible.

(I actually don't play 4e, but is it a given that races like the dragonborn and tieflings will automatically be part of any setting that WotC makes? After all, Dark Sun already doesn't have any gnomes - two more missing races wouldn't be such a problem, would they?)

As for classes, I know that paladins aren't supposed to exist on Athas, but a poster over at the WotC DS boards made a very cool elemental champion that worked. And using them as templar-knights is also a great option if they have to be included.

Either way, I'd probably buy DS4e, even though I haven't bought any other 4e books, particularly if they can get Brom back to do some more art. I can always use extra ideas for my DS games, no matter what edition they come from. Bill Slaviscek worked on DS back in the day and did some good stuff, so I'm sure it would keep true to the feel of the original, if not true to its minutiae (which, to be fair, were not exactly internally consistent to begin with ...)

 

[ferratus]

It could be that while FR was used to showcase the races and classes of the new edition, the other settings will be used to showcase new creatures and new base classes.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think Athas can be cut off easily (even if WotC doesn't say so) and I think if WotC puts tieflings in the campaign, it would mean they don't really understand the Dark Sun setting. Dark Sun eliminated races from 2e that didn't fit (in addition to adding new ones), and there's no reason to abandon that part of the setting.

Unfortunately, Dark Sun messes with quite a few core assumptions, like weaker weapons, shattering weapons and little to no armor. It would take more work to adapt Dark Sun as a campaign setting than, say, Eberron or FR.

Also, I'd expect them to render defilers as simple NPCs, rather than an actual class. It's impossible to balance defilers with preservers as a class, so why even try? Either make it a feat or make it a "monster".

 

[Klaus]

Planes:

Elemental Chaos - use it as-is.
Shadowfell - It is surprisingly strong in Athas, specially the deserts where the living world has come to reflect the eroding nature of the plane of the dead. When banshees come screaming for you in the dead of the night, you'll believe in the Shadowfell.
Feywild - Exists only as "pockets" in specific natural locations. Each pocket is ruled by a "spirit of the land", as much a prisoner as a ruler.

Classes:
Clerics - channelers of the elemental forces. Some who worship the "spirits of the land" are called "druids".
Fighters - gladiators are included here, specially with the Pit Fighter paragon path.
Paladins - annointed by the Sorcerer-Kings, these so-called "templars" are the hands of the kings in his domain. Few turn against their masters, and are hunted down implacably.
Rangers - Hunters and pathfinders for merchant houses.
Rogues - thieves, assassins (called "bards") and merchants.
Warlock - their pacts are usually with elemental, "spirits of the land" or stars.
Wizard - preserver and defilers have feats to shape their choice.

Dragonborn and Tieflings - gith and humans mutated by ambient defiling.

Eladrin - elves who chose to settle down in areas controlled by "spirits of the land".

Warforged - rusted remnants of ancient armies from the last Green Age, they are looked upon like a symbol of the magic that tore Athas apart.