Dark Sun 4e: Can it work?

[brehobit]

Dark Sun, to me, is all about the following:

Life isn't fair

By that I mean
a) Everyone is out to get you.
b) Many folks out to get you can kick your rear without trying
c) Classes/Races aren't equal in any but the most broad sense.

4e (and 3.x before it) is all about "balance". This makes the conversion hard.

You have to _let_ things be unfair. In the rules and everywhere else. So let half gaints have +8 to STR. Just make sure everyone has some good reason to exist (and in DS each race was quite reasonable).

You will likely need new classes: even 2e Dark Sun rewrote most the classes. That's fine.

Probably make the roles (defender etc.) even more distinct. 2e was all about people being very very good at a few things....

 

[Klaus]

Maybe my memory is deserting me, but I remember Templars as primarily being spellcasters. I also think a Templar would be better suited for the Leader or Controller role, as the Half-Giants were the muscle.

I'm not opposed in principle to reconcepting the Paladin rules for DS, but I can't think of what that might be for at this time. I also wouldn't want to lock down the roleplaying options of the class to "Templar" and "renegade Templar."

Lastly, I don't think it will be necessary to recycle all the 4E classes in PHB1. We'll have another PHB or two before DS comes out (if it comes out), including the Psionic one, so there will be plenty of classes to use. Barbarians and Psychic Warriors will certainly fit.


Warforged in DS? Now that's just uncalled for...

Templars had a spellcasting that peaked out at, iirc, 5th level or so, and made up for that with the ability to call upon the authority of their office. In 4e terms they would be a mix of Warlock and Warlord.

As for Warforged, I was merely replying. Or maybe it's the inner He-Man fan speaking...

 

[Irda Ranger]

Dark Sun, to me, is all about the following:

Doing that in the class and race rules though, rather than the setting info, pretty much defeats the whole purpose of 4E game design. If you want AD&D 2E rules, just play AD&D 2E.

I agree that life on Athas "isn't fair", but that's largely driven by the politics of the Sorcerer Kings, control over water, the Defiler's magic, etc. The deck is really stacked against anyone who wants to build a place that's actually pleasant to live in. But those things aren't coded into the class and race generation rules.

If you want to drive home that life isn't fair, send the PCs on a trade caravan full of orphans and medical supplies from City A to City B. Half-way there they're attacked, the medical supplies are stolen and all the water barrels are broken. Then the thirty survivors are approached by some desert dwellers of some type who offer to buy ten slaves for enough water to get ten people back to City A. The PCs then get a bone club and five minutes to make sure they aren't in the group of ten people who get sold into slavery, or the group of ten that get left in the desert to die.

That's Dark Sun.

 

[Aristotle]

Ok. My first real campaign was set in Dark Sun so I'm biased towards wanting to see it done up again. I'm not going to insist that everything new be thrown out (i.e. if someone comes up with a neat story about the Dray being the predecessors to the Dragonborn and they can really sell it, I'll buy it), but I would agree that I don't want massive change just for the sake of fitting everything that's new into the setting.

Man I really want this setting. I want Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape too... but I can see a case for all three of those being swallowed by the core. And I'm cool with that, but I still want some quirky "different" settings. The Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and other settings are all so similar to the core (in my opinion). Eberron is different, but not quite different enough for me. I love the 2 book setting plan, because it makes me feel like I could collect all of these wonderful settings without having to feel obligated to follow bloated product lines: I'm just hoping they mix up the standard and the odd settings a little instead of making us wait.

 

[Spatula]

Anyway, from what I can tell, 4E is sticking with 3E's decision to abolish the "every setting in the same universe" concept. Therefore, Dark Sun can have its own take on the Feywild, Shadowfell, Elemental Tempest, and Astral Sea, without having to worry about Athasians invading other settings.

So every setting is in its own universe, all of which are exactly the same.

 

[Spatula]

Isn't part of the fun of Dark Sun the whole ambiance of an alien world with harsh environmental factors, etc.? I'm not sure if that could be maintained with all the shifting and sliding game effects.

...wut? Tactical combat doesn't have anything to do with the setting flavor.

Dark Sun, to me, is all about the following:

Life isn't fair

By that I mean
a) Everyone is out to get you.
b) Many folks out to get you can kick your rear without trying
c) Classes/Races aren't equal in any but the most broad sense.

4e (and 3.x before it) is all about "balance". This makes the conversion hard.

You have to _let_ things be unfair. In the rules and everywhere else.

No, no, no. The setting is unfair. That doesn't mean that players have to play second fiddle to the super-awesome thri-kreen in the group. Player options being balanced or not has nothing to do with Dark Sun, although since the 2e version had so many ridiculous rules problems & imbalances, I can see why people might closely associate the two.

 

[Verys Arkon]

What does self-sacrifice for others have to do with paladins? This isn't 3E. Paladins can be chaotic evil now.

Even though the alignment restriction has been dropped, if you look at what a paladin does he still is self-sacrificing.

• Lay on Hands: burn's his own Healing Surge
• Divine Challenge: 'Leave my friends alone and pick on me, or suffer the wrath of ______ (no gods)"
• Powers like Shielding Smite, Paladin's Judgement, Martyr's Blessing etc etc

I think these kinds of actions are anti-Templar behavior, and are ill-suited for Dark Sun in general. I also think the Templar would be better off as a warlock or other caster class, not melee. Thats what your slave army is for!

 

[Henry]

Isn't part of the fun of Dark Sun the whole ambiance of an alien world with harsh environmental factors, etc.? I'm not sure if that could be maintained with all the shifting and sliding game effects.

Actually, to me it makes it even more suited, rather than less. D&D 4e has two large facets to it: Large open spaces for the characters and monsters to strut their stuff, as well as interesting terrain to stage combats on.

Therefore, Having a combat on some wind-swept bluff with sand pits, small wavy dunes, rooted-in-place cannibalistic plants that take chunks out of anyone adjacent to them, and juts of obsidian that could cut right through footwear to any who step or fall into them is perfect for both Dark Sun flavor and for 4e's mechanics.

 

[Henry]

By the way, I think that Warlocks would make an EXCELLENT basis for a "Defiler" class. Think about it: Defilers are all about quick and easy power, and more about slashing and burning life in all forms. Warlocks, as strikers, are definitely more powerful than Wizards, as a first-level warlock can put even a 4th level wizard to shame in the amount of lethal force he can dish out in one turn. Their warlock curse can be altered to better emulate the life force drain that defilers can enact on their immediate surroundings, and add a little flavor of the circles of black ash they leave on the battlefield, maybe even add a few more "blanket curse" powers to their lists -- They would be a VERY good jumping off point.

Paladins as Templars? No. Just NOT a good fit. As someone noted, Templars are not muscle dudes standing toe to toe with their foes. In fact, Templars were the only ones who got the higher level cleric spells in 2E, didn't they?

Templars and Gladiators I think really need to be their own custom built classes. A gladiator needs to be a mix of striker and defender -- basically like barbarians-as-stikers, engines of destruction with a very limited range. Templars, need to be Divine controllers, but different from wizards, I think. I don't have an easy answer there.

 

[Mark Hope]

Templars had a spellcasting that peaked out at, iirc, 5th level or so, and made up for that with the ability to call upon the authority of their office. In 4e terms they would be a mix of Warlock and Warlord.

Templars had access to 7th level spells, like regular clerics, but was a little slower to begin with. They also, however, got access to all the spells in the book, unlike clerics and druids, which were limited in one way or another. They got all their civil authority powers on top of that. Brutal class

I agree that the templar would work well as a combination of divine and martial power. Is elemental energy a power source in 4e? I really don't know. Templars in Dark Sun get their spells via their sorcerer-kings, but the power actually comes from the elemental planes. That would be an interesting option for the class.