D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[Charlaquin]

One of the big things about defilers was that anyone with talent could cast as a preserver. So defiling was a choice to gain, initially, a small bit more power than other mages. The act of doing it at low levels was like burning fields of grass or a tree just because you could. If it's all black and white anyone does it and their wrong you lose a lot of the original flavor of magic.

Yes, which is the Captain Planet view of environmentalism. PollutionDefiling is something only evil people do because they’re evil and get their kicks destroying the environment. Sorry, but I think it’s time Dark Sun moved on from that naïve view and embraced the fact that really making a difference is going to require giving up something you’ve grown accustomed to always having.

one of the most fun things for me as a DM was everyone hates mages even preservers who are fighting the good fight. that drove lots of story lines and hooks.

And how much more delicious would that be if preservers were so hated despite the fact that they’re willingly giving up power to fight that good fight? Not only are they using magic for good, they’re taking a hit to be able to do so. And the thanks they get for it is that everyone assumes they’re just as evil as every other spellcaster. How tempting would it be to become the monster they think you are (all in service to the Good Fight, of course! You swear, you’ll stop defiling for good just as soon as you’ve defeated those bad Defilers!)

 

[bulletmeat]

No one is saying punish any classes. The idea is that you can cast normally, but doing so is harmful to the world around you. There’s no penalty for this; no real drawback except the knowledge that you’re contributing to the world being in the state it’s in (but how bad can it be? everyone else does it, what’s one more spell in the grand scheme of things? The world is already too far gone to save anyway...) But if you want to cast responsibly, that’s an option. You can willingly accept a drawback to do your magic carefully enough not to kill the world just a little bit more. It shouldn’t feel good. It should feel like choosing to bike three hours to work when you have a car and can drive there in 30 minutes.

But having to deal with the NPC or PC reprecussions of defiling is a drawback. How can one have a wizard w/a druid in a group without having the drawback/penalty?

EDIT: or a Pisonicist for that matter?

 

[bulletmeat]

And how much more delicious would that be if preservers were so hated despite the fact that they’re willingly giving up power to fight that good fight? Not only are they using magic for good, they’re taking a hit to be able to do so. And the thanks they get for it is that everyone assumes they’re just as evil as every other spellcaster. How tempting would it be to become the monster they think you are (all in service to the Good Fight, of course! You swear, you’ll stop defiling for good just as soon as you’ve defeated those bad Defilers!)

Delicious for the DM or delicious for the player?

 

[TwoSix]

I know of the 4 groups I have played with in the past 5 or so years, NONE of them would have said yes to penalty for a basic PHB class. I'd get the 'then just run FR'.
That's why I think a subclass or benefits to using defiling are better. They give the option to fall into a trap with greater benefits.
I wonder if the corruption rules from Adventures in Middle-Earth might work here.

But that’s the whole point. Defiling isn’t a penalty, it’s a mechanical buff.

 

[Charlaquin]

But having to deal with the NPC or PC reprecussions of defiling is a drawback. How can one have a wizard w/a druid in a group without having the drawback/penalty?

EDIT: or a Pisonicist for that matter?

Frankly, I’d have Druids’ spells defile too. And if you look at my earlier posts, you’d see that I advocate for psionics in Dark Sun being bespoke race/class/subclass/background/monster features, and for it not to be reliable enough to serve as an alternative to magic.

 

[Charlaquin]

Delicious for the DM or delicious for the player?

Ideally both. That kind of play isn’t going to appeal to every player of course, but there are many to whom it will.

 

[TwoSix]

Delicious for the DM or delicious for the player?

For the player. If you’re not the type of player who salivates are the thought of that kind of juicy RP in your game, I can’t help you.

 

[Charlaquin]

For the player. If you’re not the type of player who salivates are the thought of that kind of juicy RP in your game, I can’t help you.

Well, I imagine the players who don’t want that kind of roleplaying experience to just play a different class. A fighter or a monk or something.

 

[bulletmeat]

For the player. If you’re not the type of player who salivates are the thought of that kind of juicy RP in your game, I can’t help you.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem w/it as a player. I love those sort of ideas. The problem is that the drawback/penalty is more than just RP/story/theme. It is now a mechanical issue. That's why I think the idea of corruption or mechanical benefit for defiling is more even mechanically.

P.S. As an OSR game lover, I feel wrong for making this argument.

 

[Eric V]

Yup, which is why this whole chain of discussion is going to be largely fruitless. Designing new mechanics for defiling is going to have the same issues psionics does -- no one's going to agree.

Designers shouldn't limit their work to what everyone agrees upon, though; can't think of a greater creativity kill.