[Dark Sun] [Spoilertastic] Sorcerer Kings

[Dausuul]

I don't know about that. Dark Sun was an underperforming setting in the TSR 2E era. That doesn't mean it did not have its fans and followers - but it never had an iconic status in the D&D mythos in terms of "ZOMG!!!!111!! You can't mess with THIS".

I think it's fair to permit the designers their ability to put their own stamp on the gameworld in the 4E books to be released. It's been nearly 20 years since the release of the initial Dark Sun boxed set. There is nothing to say that Tim Brown and Troy Denning recieved some wisdom from on high that was inscribed on great stone tablets that Rodney Thompson must respect for all time and never trample upon.

Well, heck, I'd be okay with them creating an all-new history for Athas... as long as it didn't, in my extremely prejudiced and idiosyncratic opinion, suck. And as long as it wasn't too detailed.

But then, my position on Athas's original history is firmly in the "loathe" camp. I argue for a "tabula rasa" setting mainly on the grounds that a) that's a solution that accommodates both lovers and haters of the original storyline, and b) it's totally thematically appropriate. In a world with such ruthless disregard for anything but the bare necessities of survival, who has time to write histories? Let it be a mystery to the players, to be created and revealed by the DM or not as he or she sees fit. If the DM doesn't want to make up a history for Athas, then it's simply lost for good--only the sorceror-kings and the Dragon know, and they're not telling.

The only history I need is "The natural world was shot in the face, the Sorcerer-Kings have ruled for generations..."

That's pretty much all I need. There's no need for fey* to ever have existed. (Fantasy kitchen sink settings are a pet peeve of mine, which is one of the reasons the original backstory cheesed me off so bad. Here we have a setting which doesn't feel the need to incorporate every tired old D&D trope... but then, as soon as they start creating a history for it, they have to go and cram them all back in! What, you just can't wrap your head around the idea that NOT EVERY FANTASY WORLD HAS FREAKING GNOMES?!?)

(...Er. Sorry. Got a little worked up there...)

[size=-2]*Giants do exist in Athas. Or at least they did last time I checked. They go wading in the Silt Sea and some of them have animal heads.[/size]

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I simply like the possibilities for confusing the player characters through confronting them with the past of the setting. In the original novel trilogy, there was a section where (i think) Sadira found an underground tomb filled with the desiccated bodies of strange little men (Gnomes). The whole scene (as i remember) was one of erie horror: these horrible little things from the past seemed to be still alive somehow, watching and waiting for... something.

Stumbling over stuff from the past that the player characters just "don´t get" is something i really love about Dark Sun. My favourite scene is when Rikus discovers that, once upon a time, dwarves had BEARDS! And body hair! And he´s totally disgusted by even thinking about it.

Culture clash. That´s why i love using inklings of the history. And let´s be honest: thieving, untrustworthy elves who are hated by everybody are more fun when they have a noble past that they´ve lost forever but still dream about sometimes. Otherwise they are just, well, bandits and thieves.

YMMV.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

I'd be totally okay with avoiding 90% of the history and focusing on the present day.

The only history I need is "The natural world was shot in the face, the Sorcerer-Kings have ruled for generations, and in the Long Ago Time, there were world-scouring genocides that eliminated creatures like fey and giants."

Done.

Agreed!

I appreciate the original poster's work for those who like the "offical" history, it is a very handy thing.

For rest of us...let's just say I like the official history etc of Dark Sun as much as I'd like a gnome-half-flumph bard-monk-frenzied berseker of Lolth in my campaign, k?

 

[Pbartender]

I'd be totally okay with avoiding 90% of the history and focusing on the present day.

The only history I need is "The natural world was shot in the face, the Sorcerer-Kings have ruled for generations, and in the Long Ago Time, there were world-scouring genocides that eliminated creatures like fey and giants."

Agreed. At the moment this is exactly what I want, so that by next Christmas, I can mix one part Dark Sun with one part Gamma World and run a Thundarr the Barbarian campaign. "Ahhhhhhhhh-Hee!"

The year: 1994. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Earth and the Moon, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin! Two thousand years later, Earth is reborn... A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Ookla the Mok and Princess Ariel, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Sunsword against the forces of evil. He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!​

Yeah.

 

[I'm A Banana]

(Fantasy kitchen sink settings are a pet peeve of mine, which is one of the reasons the original backstory cheesed me off so bad. Here we have a setting which doesn't feel the need to incorporate every tired old D&D trope... but then, as soon as they start creating a history for it, they have to go and cram them all back in! What, you just can't wrap your head around the idea that NOT EVERY FANTASY WORLD HAS FREAKING GNOMES?!?)

(...Er. Sorry. Got a little worked up there...)

[sblock=Rantiness]
I am so paranoid that the designers will find some awkward way to shoehorn in Eladrin that it makes my teeth hurt.

Their minds seem to be in the right place, what with the "we don't need no Divine power source!", but recent quotes about how they've made strides in letting people use the PHB's to make characters does concern me a little...

But I'm probably paranoid. I really want Dark Sun to be different. I want it to be the kind of place where flavor and feel trumps this fetish for inclusion that runs through a lot of 4e. I think it's possible. For me, this setting could either be the thing that gets me excited about 4e, or it could be the last nail in the coffin, driving home the 4eisms I like the least. Or maybe it'll just be another mixed bag.

There's cause for optimism, but it's cautious optimism for me.
[/sblock]

And, frankly, I don't need to know that fey and giants were wiped out. All I need to know is that they aren't there.

For me, the fact that the Sorcerer-Kings were/are genocidal maniacs makes them villainously distinct, and the idea that DS was originally a normal fantasy world helps drive home the fact that this is a ruined world, where things are not as they should be. It was once verdant, now it's a wasteland. The genocides fit in with that. I like the idea of an evil force successfully executing a few global genocides before the PC's are even on the scene. When the characters are born, the world is already sliding into oblivion. It's up to them to fix what they can.

I hope they don't dodge the issue due to lame PR concerns like they dodged around the half-orcs, at least

 

[evildmguy]

There have been some really good points here. I agree that the history isn't needed. It would be cool if Dark Sun wasn't a standard fantasy world that is now different.

For me, there are some things that I want ideas in how to explain them. For example, most of the world is illiterate. How do they pass on knowledge? Obviously, it can be done, but they can't be unable to memorize or learn things or they won't survive!

What does it mean that it is a "magical apocalyptic" world? Are there areas of "high (magic) tech" waiting to be found? See, for me, this has a lot more implications. It means that they knew a lot before but it has been lost. However, at the same time with my point above, they don't know it! It would be nice if there were game rules to back up this role playing idea. For example, maybe certain spells or rituals aren't known until they are found. They just can't be taken. (This would be tough with 4E "balance" but that's a different story.) If they have to find the right cave with the pictures explaining how to do a feat or power (or learn the forbidden language to learn something else), that's several adventures right there!

I can come up with my own, of course, but like others when paying for something, I want it explained or supported later by the guys that do this for a living.

Still very excited for this! And still running a weekly Dark Sun game now! So, I am really looking forward to the official version of monsters and other parts of Dark Sun!

edg

 

[Obryn]

I am so paranoid that the designers will find some awkward way to shoehorn in Eladrin that it makes my teeth hurt.

Their minds seem to be in the right place, what with the "we don't need no Divine power source!", but recent quotes about how they've made strides in letting people use the PHB's to make characters does concern me a little...

I'm going to stick to my original guns on this point, since I haven't seen anything yet to convince me otherwise...

(1) I don't ever forsee a 4e book saying outright, "You may not use this class or race." What I do forsee is something like the off-race Dragonmarks in Eberron... That is, "Your DM can make the call, but you're probably the only one... Please think this through!" With that said, since I made this prediction, they've said the Divine power source will be "missing"...

(2) I'm good with the new-to-4e races if they're Dark-Sun'd up. The box set made us see Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings in a different light. I don't see why they couldn't do similar with Eladrin or Tieflings. I think there's a big difference between an appropriate adaptation and a shoe-horning, and I trust that Mr. Baker knows it.

-O

 

[WanderingMonster]

I am so paranoid that the designers will find some awkward way to shoehorn in Eladrin that it makes my teeth hurt.

I'm not too worried. In my mind, Eladrin fill the same role as druids in DS. Druids are guardians of the last bits of unspoiled nature on Athas. I see Eladrin being similar.

Since it's been said that the Feywild will exist on Athas, it makes sense that Eladrin will too. And like the Athasian Feywild, they will probably be beautiful, terrible, savage, and unforgiving.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Was it the Lolth part or the gnome part? Cause the rest sounds cool!

A gnome "tarrasque" (at least in effect) is too much, even for me .
If the world has to be destroyed, it damn well won't be by gnomes, if I can help it!
they're doing a good enough job of it as it is...crazy little ******! Smoke Powder, Giant Space Hamsters, what next?!

"And now...to split the beer atom!"
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apj4QSN8XQY&feature=related]YouTube - Jovem Einstein E=mc² "EMC" - Young Einstein (Legendado)[/ame]

(actually, I know what's next: "Pirahana Chickens", but that's another story...)

 

[Moon_Goddess]

I simply like the possibilities for confusing the player characters through confronting them with the past of the setting. In the original novel trilogy, there was a section where (i think) Sadira found an underground tomb filled with the desiccated bodies of strange little men (Gnomes). The whole scene (as i remember) was one of erie horror: these horrible little things from the past seemed to be still alive somehow, watching and waiting for... something.

Stumbling over stuff from the past that the player characters just "don´t get" is something i really love about Dark Sun. My favourite scene is when Rikus discovers that, once upon a time, dwarves had BEARDS! And body hair! And he´s totally disgusted by even thinking about it.

Culture clash. That´s why i love using inklings of the history. And let´s be honest: thieving, untrustworthy elves who are hated by everybody are more fun when they have a noble past that they´ve lost forever but still dream about sometimes. Otherwise they are just, well, bandits and thieves.

YMMV.

I agree with love having PC stumble across stuff from the past the PC's don't understand....

But that's just the point, having the past be exactly like the Players experience in EVERY OTHER SETTING completely denies and invalidates that feeling.


Gnomes and Dwarves don't come across to Players as weird and unusual, they destroy the feeling of mystery and wonder.