DARK SUN - Your Plans?

[BluSponge]

[ds fanboi nitpick]
Erik wasn't editor at the time - iirc, the editor was Matthew Sernett
[/ds fanboi nitpick]

That's a fair nitpick. I've known Erik since the AOL Greyhawk days, and given his purist tendencies with GH, I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

All the same - some cool ideas in those articles imho. Elan as agents for the Order. Maenads arriving via the Black. Dromites as one of the kreen slave races mentioned in the 2e material. Blood obsidian. A nice map. Some cool art. Great monster writeups. A nifty alternate defiling sytem. Aaand some less successful changes too, lol.

Yup. Which is why I have them. And which is why I will give the 4e DS material a good look when it comes out. 1-2 bad ideas don't necessarily spoil the bunch. But Athas with goblins and paladins and whatnot would not fill me with confidence in the new team.

Point is - even in the oft-derided Paizo conversion, there were plenty of gems (no doubt due to author Dave Noonan's genuine love of the setting). I agree with BluSponge in hoping that the material is closer to the original setting with lots of goodies to mine. If the Paizo conversion could offer as much as it did, I'm sure the new books will too.

Just want to say I'm not deriding the Paizo conversion, which was solid, but the editorial choice to open the setting up to the whole toolbox of options, which is not what DS is about. But yeah, I'm right there with you.

Tom

 

[Mark Hope]

1-2 bad ideas don't necessarily spoil the bunch. But Athas with goblins and paladins and whatnot would not fill me with confidence in the new team.

Totally. Mind you, I once saw a writeup for an Athasian paladin that reskinned them as elemental champions that was kinda interesting. Wouldn't use it myself, but it was pretty true to the feel of the setting. There was an even better one that re-cast paladins as a subsect of Hamanu's templarate. That rocked. Neither of these was the classic Lawful Good paladin, of course, but they're the kind of thing that I'd do to any DS4e stuff I didn't like

Just want to say I'm not deriding the Paizo conversion, which was solid, but the editorial choice to open the setting up to the whole toolbox of options, which is not what DS is about. But yeah, I'm right there with you.

I hear you . From what Dave Noonan says, his original submission was packed with some very cool elements that never saw the light of day. Oh well. DS fans still have it easier than Dragonlance fans when it comes to radical revisions to our favourite setting, lol

 

[BluSponge]

Totally. Mind you, I once saw a writeup for an Athasian paladin that reskinned them as elemental champions that was kinda interesting. Wouldn't use it myself, but it was pretty true to the feel of the setting. There was an even better one that re-cast paladins as a subsect of Hamanu's templarate. That rocked. Neither of these was the classic Lawful Good paladin, of course, but they're the kind of thing that I'd do to any DS4e stuff I didn't like

See, neither of those sound "paladin"-iney to me. Clerics with kits, maybe, or unique classes, but nothing more. I mean, aren't ALL clerics in DS technically elemental champions? Now, Hamanu having a sect of warrior elite among his Templars? ROCK! But making them funky templar-paladins? BLAH!

I hear you . From what Dave Noonan says, his original submission was packed with some very cool elements that never saw the light of day.

Well, since it's all owned by Wizards, maybe some of that stuff will re-emerge. I don't think Dave would turn down another paycheck.

Tom

 

[Mark Hope]

Well, since it's all owned by Wizards, maybe some of that stuff will re-emerge. I don't think Dave would turn down another paycheck.

Tom

Good point - hadn't occured to me that they might dig into his stuff. Interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[Draloric]

[Tangent] Speaking of DS research, here is some trivia. Did you know that the original DS creators first showing of their plans include ZERO core races, except humans? No halfings, no elfs, no dwarfs. TSR management told them to go back to the drawing board and put in elfs, dwarfs, halflings, because fantasy without elfs, dwarfs, and halflings is too strange. Most of original races the designers proposed make an appearance in the final gladiator battle in the first Prism Pentad book. Bazraag, nikaal, and tarek.

With the redesign, bazraag became DS half-giants, nikaal became DS elfs, tareks became mul. I think I recall that the jozhal was another race in the original design, but they didn't make it in the gladiator battle. I think the jozhal was replace with the DS halfling.

I've never read this before in print, though it would go a long way in explaining why these particular races (perhaps with the exception of the tarek) diverged so much with regard to their discription in the novels and the game material. Was this something you asked of Denning, Brown, or Kirchoff in personal correspondence?

Kris

 

[drothgery]

See, neither of those sound "paladin"-iney to me. Clerics with kits, maybe, or unique classes, but nothing more. I mean, aren't ALL clerics in DS technically elemental champions? Now, Hamanu having a sect of warrior elite among his Templars? ROCK! But making them funky templar-paladins? BLAH!

Eh. If you're going to have heavily armored divine classes on Athas, casting some (or all) Templars as paladins in 4e is fine; assuming paladins have to be Lawful Good or Good is just accepting a pre-4e precept. Having said that, 4e Avengers were originally named Templars.

Without guessing what they'll introduce in PH3 or the Dark Sun Player's guide (beyond what's already been previewed)... I'll be shocked if elemental clerics stick around, especially if the elmental power source hasn't been killed off along with the ki power source. The only reason they existed in 2e was as a patch due to the game requiring clerics; in 4e, warlords and shamans are perfectly reasonable Athasian healers.

 

[Wik]

Without guessing what they'll introduce in PH3 or the Dark Sun Player's guide (beyond what's already been previewed)... I'll be shocked if elemental clerics stick around, especially if the elmental power source hasn't been killed off along with the ki power source. The only reason they existed in 2e was as a patch due to the game requiring clerics; in 4e, warlords and shamans are perfectly reasonable Athasian healers.

God. I never really thought of that - the game doesn't really NEED clerics at all, does it? Geez. Here I was, thinking about how to convert Dark sun clerics, and you pretty much make me realize... they're not necessary at ALL. Warlords fit in much better - and in my mind, it would help make the game more of a world where armies clashed.

I was always bugged by the fact that, despite it being a resource-starved world, the game seemed to suggest that while very city-state had a huge army, those armies were never USED (the only war mentioned in the game between the city states is the Tyr/Urik war, and it was a quick one... it explicitly states that Nibenay and Gulg never went to war, and they hated each other the most... only a few ruined city-states suggest past wars. Anyways, it always seemed to go against the game's mission statement, and I know when I run it, wars will be a big part of the game)

Fun Fact: One of the design goals of DARK SUN, way back when, was to make a game that better interacted with the BATTLESYSTEM rules (as well as a game that incorporated psionics). Which is why there were so many BATTLESYSTEM stats in the earlier books. Unfortunately, that never took off. But it's one of the reasons I think DARK SUN would be alot of fun to play in Savage Worlds (which has a great mass combat system).

 

[Mark Hope]

I was always bugged by the fact that, despite it being a resource-starved world, the game seemed to suggest that while very city-state had a huge army, those armies were never USED (the only war mentioned in the game between the city states is the Tyr/Urik war, and it was a quick one... it explicitly states that Nibenay and Gulg never went to war, and they hated each other the most... only a few ruined city-states suggest past wars.

Well, the Ivory Triangle boxed set talks in some detail about hostilities between Nibenay and Gulg. Perhaps not all-out war, that supplement does describe them as on/off conflicts that recur on a regular basis. There are descriptions of famous battles with maps showing their locations. There is also the "Peninsula Rampage" (iirc) between Silt Sea giants and Balic. The most famous war of the past is probably the one between Urik and Yaramuke, which is also interesting because Hamanu gave its spoils to Borys as a tribute, which Borys then used to fund the creation of Ur Draxa. Well, interesting to fanbois like me anyway,

Gotta agree with you in general, though - DS really benefits from a good dose of bloody desert warfare. It was always discussed in the setting material and all those Battlesystem rules add-ons. Like you say, though, only the Urik/Tyr war was featured in an actual adventure. It would be cool to see some full-on warfare part of the DS4e adventure.

 

[Wik]

Yeah - I was thinking of Urik and Yaramuke as an example. And the Nibenay/Gulg one hints at some skirmishes, but no "actual warfare" - the Revised setting explicitly stating a war never happened. I don't consider Giants vs. Balic an actual "war", though - more like a raid.

I know in my Sandbox DS games, there were several wars brewing - a Tyr/Urik war (over the same reason, too - Iron), A Urik+Draj invasion of Raam, and some politicking involving Balic and Nibenay.

I really liked this DRAGON article, too, which was about Athasian War Machines and Monsters - basically, monsters built for BATTLESYSTEM play. Like a giant undead beetle that was hollowed out to transport troops. Lots of cool stuff.

I don't know what major plots will be ongoing in my 4e sandbox, yet. But I know Tyr's struggle against Kalak will be one, and I always liked the craziness in Raam, so that'll probably be in. But I think a war also has to be a possibility that the PCs can either instigate or try to halt.

 

[Hawke]

My last DS game ended abruptly about a week before 4E was announced. I hope to gather up 2 of the players and combine with 3 new in my current group and continue the storyline. We basically had the events of Freedom happen (though not so railroaded and they actually got to participate) but the final outcome of the city is in the air.

Two created smaller city-states are playing a small role as locations for world changing events that are lining up the other city-states in responses. Depending on the changes there, I might spend less time in self-created cities and retcon them to existing city-states and bring up the story there. We'll see though... my campaign is going a little slower than I had anticipated and i'd like to finish it out. Might skip a few levels as a result - I think we'd like to see the conclusion of our current campaign.