D&D 5E Darkvision range and light sources beyond.

[jgsugden]

The best method IMHO: Treat darkvision as a black and white light source that emanates from the creature with darkvision that only it can benefit from using. It is simple and easy and works. If there is a candle 65' away, a dwarf can see darkvision for 55', dim light for 5' (which is similar to dakrvision, but in color), 10' of bright light, and then 5' more of dim light. If that candle moves to 100' away, then the dwarf can see 60' of darkvision, 30' of darkness, 5' of dim, 10' of bright and 5' of dim.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I could see it going either way: Your vision is now limited to the range of darkvision period, or that you can see as normal outside of the 60' bubble. What do you think?

Well, strictly speaking, by RAW you can't see the candle at 71' feet even with normal vision, because per PHB 183, when you're in darkness you are in heavy obscurement, and creatures within a heavily-obscured area are "effectively blinded" and can't see anything. That's goofy though, so just ignore the PHB rules for heavily obscured areas and say "anything within a lighted area is visible to creatures outside the area." And yes, I'd make that apply even if those creatures were also using darkvision.

I mean, I like the idea of darkvision being a separate mode that you put your vision into, but it's a little bit too much of the wrong kind of complexity for the campaign I'm running. We don't make PCs take time to adjust their eyesight when going from sunlight into gloom, either, for example. If we did, I'd make darkvision modal at the same time.

 

[Larac]

I think the biggest problem posed by darkvision is that light in D&D works backwards. As posted previously, you have to think about darkvision as itsself being a source of illumination. Luminous objects project their own light and need to be handled differently. IRL: in low-light environments, luminous objects are more visible than non-luminous ones, that's how illumination works. Projected light is received by the eyes and processed based on how powerful that illumination is.

Darkvision works backwards. You can see unilluminated objects as though they were poorly illuminated. This is impossible. If you were to put a person in a lightless box, darkvision or not, they couldn't see anything because there is NO light source. This becomes gramatically confusing because "darkness" in D&D isn't a total lack of light sources, it's just so dark as to not reflect enough light for the normal eye to see.

For this reason, I don't allow people with darkvision to see in what I call "true darkness" that is: an environment naturally lacking in all light sources. IE: a sealed passageway deep beneath the ground. No light, no reflection, no vision. Magical forms of sight can still see though.

In the case of a candle 60'1" away, the candle would project light into the 60' range of darkvision, thus increasing the level of light there and be visible to a person with darkvision 60'. In the case of an unilluminated object, I'm willing to allow a player to make a perception check to spot something normally beyond their range of vision.

This to me sounds like Low Light vision not Dark Vision.
Dark Vision is what the races and creatures who see but live in darkness use.

But again your world your rules.

 

[Sunseeker]

This to me sounds like Low Light vision not Dark Vision.
Dark Vision is what the races and creatures who see but live in darkness use.

But again your world your rules.

There is very little "true darkness" IRL for a comparison, so how fantasy races work is of course, by fantastical means. However, most creatures that live in what humans consider "true darkness" are sightless or have some means of generating their own luminescense, see: fish that live in the deepest abysses of the ocean. Outside of that, creatures with the ability to see in next-to-no-light situations are evolved to do so, they have large eyes with massive pupils to take in as much light as possible. In most D&D systems the races with darkvision look nothing like this half of them don't even live in darkness.

You have to understand that our concept of "true darkness" that is, zero sources of light whatsoever, is almost non-existent. Even for creatures with darkvision, it's going to be rare that they live in situations with zero light at all. If they are intelligent they will likely manufacture their own light (such as Drow) or they will be go in and out of light periodically (Dwarves). Also keep in mind that 5th edition is less granular than previous editions, there's no "Low Light Vision" anymore, and you are correct that in very select circumstances I treat Darkvision as Low Light Vision because I treat it as a non-magical form of vision.

Before modern science, it was actually believed that the eyes produced light, which reflected off the things we were looking at and that is how we "saw" things. For all intents and purposes, this is the easiest way to rationalize how darkvision works for dwarves, elves, tieflings and other semi-magical races in D&D (why Dragonborn don't have darkvision I'll never understand).

 

[delericho]

This to me sounds like Low Light vision not Dark Vision.
Dark Vision is what the races and creatures who see but live in darkness use.

In 5e, low-light vision no longer exists - everything that it used to do is now part of the darkvision 'package'.

 

[guachi]

I think the biggest problem posed by darkvision is that light in D&D works backwards. As posted previously, you have to think about darkvision as itsself being a source of illumination. Luminous objects project their own light and need to be handled differently. IRL: in low-light environments, luminous objects are more visible than non-luminous ones, that's how illumination works. Projected light is received by the eyes and processed based on how powerful that illumination is.

Darkvision works backwards. You can see unilluminated objects as though they were poorly illuminated. This is impossible. If you were to put a person in a lightless box, darkvision or not, they couldn't see anything because there is NO light source. This becomes gramatically confusing because "darkness" in D&D isn't a total lack of light sources, it's just so dark as to not reflect enough light for the normal eye to see.

For this reason, I don't allow people with darkvision to see in what I call "true darkness" that is: an environment naturally lacking in all light sources. IE: a sealed passageway deep beneath the ground. No light, no reflection, no vision. Magical forms of sight can still see though.

In the case of a candle 60'1" away, the candle would project light into the 60' range of darkvision, thus increasing the level of light there and be visible to a person with darkvision 60'. In the case of an unilluminated object, I'm willing to allow a player to make a perception check to spot something normally beyond their range of vision.

This is how I rule it, too. If there is no light to give off photons, you can't see. Darkvision, as described, works very similarly to how actual, living beings see in low light - little color because the rod cells are being excited. If a being can actually see with no light but can see or sense heat (like a snake) then I'll adjudicate it like that.

 

[Larac]

So maybe the underground races should have an odd form of Blind Sense?

Or perhaps Dark Vision is truly magical.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

All normal light? If you're in the bright radius of normal light? If you're in the dim radius of normal light? If you're outside the dim
radius of the normal light but that radius still overlaps your darkvision radius? The normal light source is entirely outside your darkvision radius? Under what condition does darkvision fail? A pinpoint of a distant torch?

I understand the sentiment, it feels right that darkvision should fail at some point, I'm just curious where you draw that line.

Basically...Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. When there's normal light folks could see by. And No.

If the person with Darkvision is within the light radius of the normal light, his darkvision "goes out". As soon as he is outside that radius, he can use his Darkvision. Yes, he can still she "into" the light radius, but it's light...color and all. If he turns his back to the light source, he can look away from it and his Darkvision would kick in because he isn't in the light and there is no light to 'see into'. If someone 200' ahead comes from around the corner with a torch, his "darkvision" would go out because he would be seeing what it inside that light sources radius. Basically, if its dark, you use Darkvision. If not, you don't.

Now, with all that said...I do allow for "narrative exceptions". For example, if a PC thief is trying to sneak into a castle at night...he can use his 'darkvision' to basically stay in the shadows and see what is a few feet in front of him, even through there are torches spaced every 80' around the walls. In this case, its not a case of "what do the rules say" so much as a case of "what would be cool in a movie/story". Being able to remain in the shadows and see enough that you have the advantage in a big, dark room lit by a single candle is cool...it would make the PC with darkvision "better" then the NPC without it who is relying on a candle.

The key to pulling off "variable rules" like this is fairness, consistency, and player trust. If you have players who don't trust you, or never know what to expect because you aren't being fair (say, and NPC assassin can move around in the outer edge of the campfire just fine, the week after that a PC thief can't)...that's when you have problems. Or if you have players who are so hung-up on the rules that any variation on them, no matter the situation, sends them into a erupting volcano of raging kittens...well, find better players I guess. I've also found that giving the players a peak behind the curtain, so to speak, helps with regards to some rulings that get resistance. After a while you will probably be able to get by with a "Yes, it looks bad...but, trust me. There's a reason...", and they'll let it go, trusting you.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Ristamar]

There's nothing RAW to indicate Darkvision in 5e would not function as a potential overlap with other light sources.

That's not to say that those running it more akin to infravision are having "badwrongfun," but by the standard rules, it's not an either/or situation.

 

[CapnZapp]

This thread creates problems that aren't meant to be there.

A character with darkvision sees the exact same things as a regular character, plus he sees 60 ft around him.

So if there's a candle at 70 ft (or even 700 ft) obviously you see the small point of light.

And at 70 ft, you'll clearly see things close to the candle. At longer ranges, you would only see the speck of light.

So far, we're not even talking rules. Just plain reality.

Then for a dwarf, you simply add that you see what's around you, even if you're in complete darkness.

Darkvision is simple. It's meant to be simple.

You add complications, fine - but that's on you.