Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Bill Zebub]

Yes, but as I noted, interest in a game doesn't have to be unitary. Just because you like 95% of what The Deep Delver Game provides, doesn't mean you still can't find the same old "everything sees in the dark but the PCs" every bit as unattractive as you would in D&D. I have little evidence that people have a "take it or leave" it attitude toward any game system; if anything my experiences have taught me people are more likely to put up with it in big popular games because being able to find the common experience there is often a factor.

I do want to re-iterate that "no darkvision for PCs" does not automatically mean "everything sees in the dark but the PCs". In fact, I think taking that extreme devalues the narrative value of darkness. Sure, orcs and goblins and the like need light to see and they use torches and fires.

But then there's something hunting you that doesn't seem to need light....

 

[BrokenTwin]

Yeah, actual darkvision is something that I think works a lot better when it's used sparingly altogether. If most of the enemies you encounter also need light sources, then it not only adds additional avenues of attack (putting out THEIR lights at opportune moments), but also makes the moments where the players realize "oh no, this thing can see us in the dark!" that much more juicy.

 

[GMMichael]

If only some PCs have darkvision, the GM has two choices about how to handle the information difference:

• Separate the players (or pass notes) so that the two groups get different information.
• Let everybody have the information and just apply mechanical differences

I find the first option a total non-starter. I might sometimes pass notes or separate players, but it has to be for something really important. I'm not going to do it for a whole dungeon crawl.

And while the second one can apply mechanical penalties appropriately, it is unsatisfying (to me) because it removes the whole "fear of the dark" aspect.

There's a third choice.

- Let everybody have the information and treat them the same, with exceptions for scouts.

If there's a melee in poor lighting (i.e. by firelight), even the darksighted characters are going to have to deal with moving shadows and light sources. Being able to see infrared (or whatever) isn't a giant advantage in that situation.

If there's a melee in darkness, the characters without darkvision aren't really in the fight, anyway. They're just hoping to not get hit, and not hit their allies, and should probably just get out of the way so that those who can see, can fight.

I don't think that "fear of the dark" is lost with sharing all the visual info, because even the darksighted PCs have a threshold of can see/can't see. The PCs who would have to wait for normal sight just experience the fear of the dark through the darksighted characters' eyes.

Does option 3 nerf the dwarves and piss them off? Hopefully not, because the scout-exception means that darkvision is still a big advantage, being able to move ahead without casting light, and a darksighted character can still wield a shield and weapon without having to choose between the two.

Does option 3 mean that darkvision doesn't ruin dungeon-crawling? No, but it's nice to mediate the problem of "everyone sees different things at different times, using different rules."

 

[Bill Zebub]

There's a third choice.

- Let everybody have the information and treat them the same, with exceptions for scouts.

Since my option #2 was "give the same information, then apply mechanical differences" I took this to mean that you would NOT apply mechanical differences. But then you wrote...

If there's a melee in darkness, the characters without darkvision aren't really in the fight, anyway. They're just hoping to not get hit, and not hit their allies, and should probably just get out of the way so that those who can see, can fight.

Not letting the characters without darkvision see their enemies, even if the players know, is exactly what I mean by "apply mechanical differences." E.g., the players of the humans and halflings know there are three (insert monster) attacking the party, but if their characters try to attack them it's with whatever mechanical penalties apply when you can't see your enemies (e.g. Disadvantage in 5e).

No? Are we still talking about different things?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A fair number of people have at least seen that, too. Conceptually, seeing by heat isn't hard.

For sure, but the issue is people making guesses like seeing footprints and so on. It'll be a lot easier when it's commonplace (and it's 1000x - literally - closer to commonplace now than it was say, 20 years ago).

 

[GMMichael]

Not letting the characters without darkvision see their enemies, even if the players know, is exactly what I mean by "apply mechanical differences." E.g., the players of the humans and halflings know there are three (insert monster) attacking the party, but if their characters try to attack them it's with whatever mechanical penalties apply when you can't see your enemies (e.g. Disadvantage in 5e).

No? Are we still talking about different things?

It's a difference, but I'm thinking more "remove them from combat" than "PC gets disadvantage, 4 point penalty, must guess where opponent is, etc." It's the former case of "everyone gets low light treatment" that treats everyone exactly the same.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I do want to re-iterate that "no darkvision for PCs" does not automatically mean "everything sees in the dark but the PCs". In fact, I think taking that extreme devalues the narrative value of darkness. Sure, orcs and goblins and the like need light to see and they use torches and fires.

But then there's something hunting you that doesn't seem to need light....

As I said, the occasional monster doing it isn't probably more of a problem than ones that can crawl on ceilings or walk through walls. If that's all you've got intrinsic night sight isn't more compelling than any number of things to counter things that make you vulnerable.

But that's not the context of how darksight became ubiquitous, and it may be necessary in The Deep Delver Game to explain that, no, most things other than you don't see in the dark, either because its not what people are used to.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It's a difference, but I'm thinking more "remove them from combat" than "PC gets disadvantage, 4 point penalty, must guess where opponent is, etc." It's the former case of "everyone gets low light treatment" that treats everyone exactly the same.

Oh, sure, whatever the system is, apply those rules to the characters who can't see in the dark. That was all I was meant by "let the players know what they would see if they could see, but apply mechanics to their characters."

 

[Reynard]

In the spirit of the idea that the game is actually about meaningful choices (a notion a strongly subscribe to) the issue of light and darkvision and related things comes down to having those things matter to player choice. it should matter at character generation -- what are you giving up for darkvision? -- and it should matter in the moment -- what is the tradeoff for turning on the light? If the game is about rooting through tunnels looking for treasure while avoiding monsters, the latter is pretty simple: light lets you find more treasure but will potentially attract more monsters.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In the spirit of the idea that the game is actually about meaningful choices (a notion a strongly subscribe to) the issue of light and darkvision and related things comes down to having those things matter to player choice. it should matter at character generation -- what are you giving up for darkvision? -- and it should matter in the moment -- what is the tradeoff for turning on the light? If the game is about rooting through tunnels looking for treasure while avoiding monsters, the latter is pretty simple: light lets you find more treasure but will potentially attract more monsters.

Of course as I noted, the choice is almost never an either-or unless the GM is being particularly precious about what he lets you see with the darksight (since, after all, the things that naturally have that have to get around too); you use the darksight to navigate the corridors and such (and to be able to fight effectively if you lose your light), and the light to search the interesting places.

(Honestly, anything so hidden that the sense that allows you to navigate rough footing and such in caves but won't pick up that hidden items strikes me as being pretty likely to miss with non-magical lighting anyway; torches and oil lamps (both of which I've used) aren't all the best lighting in the world anyway. Almost no flame based lighting will be).