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D&D 5E Dashing with flying magic items, yea or nay?

Everything written in the game is interpreted BY YOU in how it's meant to be used. And telling someone else they are wrong makes absolutely zero sense.
Q: "Does Fireball allow a saving throw if a creature caught in it is chained to the floor by an ankle? Wouldn't it be more difficult to avoid?"
A: "Yes, it does by RAW. Although if you wanted to house rule that there's some penalty for being partially restrained, you could do that."

For SOME rules questions there are simple and clear answers in the text. "Do Paladins get proficiency with heavy armor?" "Do Elves have Darkvision?" "Does Dimension Door have a Somatic component?"

Of course, questions with answers this simple are generally not the subject of debate. :)
 

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Steampunkette

Shaper of Worlds
RAW? Flying Carpets and Brooms are mounts under your control. They do not change your movement speed, but instead follow your commands, like any mounted creature. Both require a command word to initially activate them, but no continued use of the command word is implied by the text.

To control the Broom you treat it like any other mount. For the Carpet you issue verbal commands.

Which means it expends the Carpet/Broom's "Action" to dash, not your own.
 



Same difference. You're ruling on the rules. :)
No. RAW means "what you believe the rules literally mean based on the words on the page". Rulings are typically RAI, i.e. what you think the rules were trying to say, even if the words don't actually convey that, or go even further - i.e. rejecting the words in favour of what you feel makes sense. This is the key RAW/RAI distinction.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
No. RAW means "what you believe the rules literally mean based on the words on the page". Rulings are typically RAI, i.e. what you think the rules were trying to say, even if the words don't actually convey that, or go even further - i.e. rejecting the words in favour of what you feel makes sense. This is the key RAW/RAI distinction.

The highlighted is where we can have issues. I think that barring further clarification the fact that a broom is ridden means that it should be treated just like a mount. It does not explicitly state that but that's just not how the book is written.

I think RAW was more useful in some previous editions. It may be useful in some cases and I tend to include the actual text of the rules at least at first in those cases. But some? Reasonable people can come to different conclusions.

Ultimately this is just something that is going to be a ruling at a table because there is nothing that seems to clarify it further.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
No. RAW means "what you believe the rules literally mean based on the words on the page".
Exactly. You're ruling on the subject based on what you think it says.

One's a noun, the other's a verb. But you can't have one without the other. I mean, what else are you going to do with a rule other than rule on it?
 


I stumbled across some relevant rules. The broom of flying and carpet of flying are vehicles rather than mounts. I'll discuss that in a bit. First, I'll respond to a couple of previous suggestions.

Have you considered bringing up the power of the other items so the broom isn't ahead of them? It seems like the issue is that the broom is basically a bit more powerful than it should be, and sure, you could solve that by making it weaker, but you could also give the other items other advantages that made them more viable. I think it's also worth noting that having an item grant you a movement type (and thus Dash) isn't purely beneficial - in some cases it would be more useful to a PC for the item to move independently and without using their Move at all.

This is not a bad idea. One issue I think I would have with implementation is that it would just make all of the flying items overpowered. Even with a very weak interpretation (or house rules) the broom of flying is not only too strong compared to other flying items, it is very powerful for its rarity. It's a basic uncommon item that doesn't even require your attunement and automagically bypasses all flight and elevation challenges in the Exploration Pillar. That seems substantially more powerful for a party to have than for one of their warriors to have a +1 weapon. If I wanted to correct this by just raising the rarity on all of these items, then I couldn't use the random magic item tables in the DMG.

Sure, so my solution above was that you can sit on the Broom, but the only way you can give it instructions to go somewhere is by using an action and a command word.

In combat, this is akin to a really crappy maneuverability in previous editions. Dashing in-and-out isn't going to work, and even basic stuff (beyond "hover in place") is going to cost actions that will prevent you from attacking.

Out of combat, the action cost is much less important. And you are probably doing less tactical positioning as well. "go right above that tree" every few minutes isn't going to burn your action economy.

This is also not a bad idea. One reason I'd rather not go with that approach is because in previous editions you could ride it more like a mount, so this is more of a departure than I'd like. The other, probably more important, reason is that it would be terribly fiddly and probably end up in endless arguments at the table.

In any event, those are both reasonably good suggestions that someone might want to use, just not quite what I need.

Now onto the rules I stumbled across. As I said, the broom of flying and carpet of flying are vehicles rather than mounts. It's up to interpretation what that means in context, but here are the relevant bits.

Player's Handbook page 182
Characters in wagons, carriages, or other land vehicles choose a pace as normal. Characters in waterborne vessels are limited to the speed of the vessel (see chapter 5, "Equipment"), and they don't suffer penalties for a fast pace or gain benefits from a slow pace. Depending on the vessel and the sized of the crew, ships might be able to travel for up to 24 hours per day.
Certain special mounts, such as a pegasus or a griffon, or special vehicles, such as a carpet of flying, allow you to travel more swiftly. The Dungeon Master's Guide contains more information on special methods of travel.

Interestingly, while the Basic Rules contains the same wording, D&D Beyond references a broom of flying instead of a carpet of flying. I'm not sure why it differs, but I'm assuming they both count as vehicles because of the similarity of their item descriptions, and how they differ from other movement-related items.

The Equipment chapter only lists some vehicle speeds in mph, so it's not useful. The DMG additional information is only slightly more useful.

Dungeon Master's Guide page 119
Flying by a spell or magic item works the same as travel on foot, as described in the Player's Handbook. A creature that serves as a flying mount must rest 1 hour for every 3 hours it flies, and it can't fly for more than 9 hours per day. Thus, characters mounted on griffons (which have a flying speed of 80 feet) can travel at 8 miles per hour, covering 72 miles over 9 hours with two 1-hour-long rests over the course of the day. Mounts that don't tire (such as a flying construct) aren't subject to this limitation).

Since the broom and carpet are magic items, one could use this as an argument that you can travel at different paces with them, and possibly by implication also Dash.

Alternatively, the same page also lists a single air vehicle (the airship) on an "Airborne and Waterborne Vehicles" chart, with a listed mph and other stats identical to water vehicles.

Since there are other magic items that allow flight but aren't treated as vehicles, I prefer to interpret the rules about "working the same as travel on foot" to refer to them, while the two items specifically called out as vehicles should follow the vehicles rules where possible. (This is just a matter of preference of interpretation--the rules are too sparse for there to be a clear winner.)

There aren't really any aerial vehicle rules in the DMG, or rather, they appear to simply be lumped in with the waterborne vehicle rules. Since that is the only precedent, I do feel the strongest interpretation of the PHB and DMG is to say that they follow what is written about water vehicles, meaning they have their own movement rate which doesn't really vary (and therefore shouldn't be Dashing).

We do have supplements that provide more rules on vehicles, and they can be instructive.

Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus has rules for land vehicles with magical engines. These vehicles move by means of the driver spending their Action to cause the vehicle to move. The driver can also use their Bonus Action to cause the vehicle to Dash. This movement appears to take place on the driver's turn. You can also pump Demon Ichor into the engine to get a temporary speed boost.

Ghosts of Saltmarsh provides rules more rules for waterborne vehicles. Waterborne vehicles roll their own initiative and have their own movement and Actions. Movement and various Action options require a certain number of crew to be present on the ship. These crew are spending their entire turns "too busy managing the ship to do anything else during combat", and do not appear to actually roll initiative. On the ship's turn, the captain decides where the ship moves and which Actions it takes. Officers apparently do roll their own initiative, as certain officers can use their Action to perform special actions. The Full Speed Ahead action increases the ship's movement by 1d6 x 5 feet until the end of its next turn, due to "exhorting the crew to work harder and drive the ship forward faster".

Eberron: Rising from the Last War provides information on elementally-powered vessels, including an airship. None of this information relates to tactical (round by round) level of movement, and instead provides only information about long range travel, which is given with a set mph value. As the rules in the book are the same for the airship and the waterborne galleon, this is additional evidence that airborne vehicles are intended to work more like waterborne vehicles than like land vehicles.

Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage includes a spelljamming helm. It moves ships in a set mph speed (based on unexpended spell slots), rather than using Actions or Dashing and such.

Those are the only rules I'm aware of, though there may be more in some other adventure.

Let's talk a bit about Dashing, the Full Speed Ahead special ship's officer command, and ramifications.

A character's ability to Dash is limited. A character's movement rate outside of rounds is essentially based on moving their normal movement each round. A movement of 30 feet gives you a daily normal travel pace of about 26 feet per round, or a daily fast travel pace of about 33 feet per round. We also see this via the Chase rules in the DMG, where a character can only use their Action to Dash 3 + Constitution mod times before they need to start making Constitution checks to avoid taking (temporary) Exhaustion. Clearly, Dashing represents non-sustainable exertion rather than the movement speed a creature would have long term.

Just like Dashing, Full Speed Ahead relies on exertion from a crew and is not the vehicle's standard. While we have little in the way of rules for standard land vehicles (just magically powered infernal engines and lightning rail trains), it would seem reasonable that the creatures pulling wagons and such would be able to exert themselves for limited movement increase on a tactical scale, in a similar way to how characters can Dash. In like manner, as the PHB indicates, they can travel at fast, normal, and slow paces.

In the case of the broom of flying and the carpet of flying, it seems to me more consistent (and more importantly to me--more balanced with the other magic flight items) to disallow them to Dash, unless there is some sort of way to provide a magical boost to them. Those looking for a different experience might let them work like an infernal war machine, meaning the driver needs to use their Action to make them move, and could also use their Bonus action to make them Dash. In any event, the driver's own move isn't used to affect a vehicle.

So as far as Dashing goes, I'm fairly satisfied that I'm not going to allow these special vehicles to Dash, nor are they going to use the driver's movement (since no vehicle in the game does so).

The Stuff So Far
So it seems like there are 5e precedents that are either decent, or at least as good as any other interpretation, for implementing the following:
-Broom of flying and carpet of flying, as airborne vehicles, have their own turn.
-These items have a set movement and cannot Dash.
-The driver directs the item's movement on the item's turn, but does not otherwise effect it with their own move or actions.

So how do we determine when these items take their turn, given that they have no Dexterity score to roll initiative with? I think a good precedent can be borrowed from the Artificer's steel defender (and I think one or two other recent game elements). The steel defender acts on the same initiative as its owner, but takes its own turn immediately after its owners turn completes. The broom and carpet can function identically in combat, with the note that they can move on their turn, but can not take Actions.

This is nerfing the broom quite a bit, but I'm not sure it's really enough to really firmly stick it into the "Exploration only" pillar like I want it. (Not that I would make a meta-rule that the item fails to function when initiative is rolled, just that I want combat usage to be thoroughly unappealing compared to the combat designed winged boots or wings of flying.)

The broom of flying in particular could take some rules from the mounts section. In particular, rules about being dismounted. I think I'd like to say that you use half your movement to mount or dismount it, just like a mount, and you use an Action to activate it. Since it takes its turn directly after yours, that means it can still move, so if you are just jumping on it to try to make an aerial getaway, that's still an option.

With all that, it still feels too useful in combat. In addition to potentially getting knocked off if someone force moves your broom or knocks you prone, I'm considering an additional house rule. If you or your broom takes damage or if subjected to another situation that would require you to make a Constitution save to maintain concentration (whether or not you are actually concentrating and therefore whether or not you actually need to make such a save), you make the same DC 10 Dexterity save to see if you fall off. Based on the broom being a narrow and precarious platform to ride, I'm thinking of saying that if you aren't holding it with at least one hand you have Disadvantage on that save; and that moving on the broom without at least one hand free to hold it means that you also have to make this save or fall off.

So, the new broom of flying. (The carpet of flying follows the same vehicle based rules, but I wouldn't include the issues with needing to use half your movement to mount it, nor potentially getting knocked off. It's supposed to be a more powerful item, so I assume it cradles your feet and legs in such a way as to make it as stable as the floor.)

[EDIT: First draft version follows. An improved version based on feedback is in post #52]

Broom of Flying
Wondrous item, uncommon

This wondrous broom, which weighs 3 pounds, functions like a mundane broom until you stand astride it (following the rules for Mounting and Dismounting a creature in the Player's Handbook) and speak its command word as an action. It then hovers beneath you and can be ridden in the air as an airborne vehicle. It has a flying speed of 50 feet. It can carry up to 400 pounds, but its flying speed becomes 30 feet while carrying over 200 pounds. The broom stops hovering when you land.
In combat, the broom shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It moves as you direct it, and takes no actions. If any other effect moves the broom against your will, or if you are not holding it with at least one hand when it moves at your direction, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the broom, landing prone on the ground and taking falling damage appropriate to the distance fallen (see chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook). If you are knocked prone while riding the broom, or if you or the broom take damage or are subject to an environmental condition that might break concentration (whether or not you are concentrating on an effect), you must make the same saving throw. You have Disadvantage on this saving throw if you are not holding the broom with at least one hand.
You can send the broom to travel alone to a destination within 1 mile of you if you speak the command word as an action, name the location, and are familiar with that place. The broom comes back to you when you speak another command word as an action, provided that the broom is still within 1 mile of you.

Maybe that is enough.
 
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NotAYakk

Legend
Ifnyou treat them as veihicles, just require the pilot to use their action to make it move every turn. Like the veihicle rules say.

I mean, that makes their movement really costly in combat.

(OTOH, having a tiny servant pilot your broom - or a familiar! - improved the action economy.)
 

But this exactly highlights why "RAW" is stupid.
That's the point! You establish RAW as a baseline, which is often a stupid baseline. But very often with RPGs people don't even understand what's been written, or don't remember what's been written.

This is staggeringly obvious whenever people list "house rules" for their game in one of those threads - inevitably a bunch of stuff that people list as "house rules" is actual game rules they've just forgotten are actual rules - or never knew were, but came up with an identical approach.
Because some rules actually aren't written. As @Paul Farquhar points out... they don't think there actually is a rule written in this case for the Boom. Which makes it doubly pointless to care about it, let along spend multiple posts arguing about it.
Yup. Except it's not pointless, because misrepresenting what the RAW is causes a lot of confusion, because when people say RAW, they mean what is written. And it's always worth noting what isn't written - but that's not RAW, that's just missing rules.
Everything in this game is RAI-- Rules As Interpreted.
No. This is an unhelpful way of looking at things and harmful to communication. This is the second time in this thread you've tried to change the meaning of an acronym. That's unhelpful. Words have agreed meanings so humans can understand each other. When you try to unilaterally change that, you're harming communication, not helping it.

Next up, the guy who tried to tell me CRPG stood for "classic RPG" not "computer RPG".

RAI means Rules as Intended. You don't have to like that, but don't try and make the acronym mean something else. If there's no creator to confirm the RAI, there is no RAI, just something more like RAYTAI (Rules As You Think Are Intended), which is still a bit different to "Rules as Interpreted". Rules as Interpreted, in plain English, suggests something much closer to RAW, and which still might not be RAI.
 

Ifnyou treat them as veihicles, just require the pilot to use their action to make it move every turn. Like the veihicle rules say.

I mean, that makes their movement really costly in combat.

I like this idea. While the only vehicle rules that specify that are for the land infernal war machines, taking the approach of it having its own turn and using its own action economy to move based on the water vehicles and controlled creatures isn't necessarily a perfect fit either.

The downside of it is that previous editions didn't require it, but since they also hampered maneuverability in a way 5e doesn't, this seems like an appropriately 5e way of making a simple drawback that balances that out.

I considered taking off the potential of falling when concentration-breaking things would happen, but if that were the case, then you could use this much like boots of levitation and just fly up somewhere and keep an aerial perch during combat. Since those boots are rare and require both concentration and attunement, I think we need to keep the nerf or have yet another item that it shouldn't be better than but is anyway.

So here's a slightly revised version, and I can't see anyway to really nerf it harder. Still a strong uncommon major item that completely negates elevation/flight challenges in the Exploration Pillar, but now it becomes extremely undesireable in combat outside of some sort of really niche cases (which is fine).

Broom of Flying (Revised)
Wondrous item, uncommon

This wooden broom, which weighs 3 pounds, functions like a mundane broom until you stand astride it (following the rules for Mounting and Dismounting a creature in the Player's Handbook) and speak its command word as an action. It then hovers beneath you and can be ridden in the air as an airborne vehicle. It has a flying speed of 50 feet. It can carry up to 400 pounds, but its flying speed becomes 30 feet while carrying over 200 pounds. The broom stops hovering when you land.
While you are seated on the hovering broom and gripping it with at least one hand, you can use your action to direct its movement. It otherwise hovers in place. If any other effect moves the broom against your will, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the broom, landing prone on the ground and taking falling damage appropriate to the distance fallen (see chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook). If you are knocked prone while riding the broom, or if you or the broom take damage or are subject to an environmental condition that might break concentration (whether or not you are concentrating on an effect), you must make the same saving throw. You have Disadvantage on this saving throw if you are not gripping the broom with at least one hand. If at any time you are neither seated on the broom nor gripping it, it falls to the ground harmlessly.
You can send the broom to travel alone to a destination within 1 mile of you if you speak the command word as an action, name the location, and are familiar with that place. The broom comes back to you when you speak another command word as an action, provided that the broom is still within 1 mile of you.
 
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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
When it comes to brooms as vehicles, I don't personally find it helpful. First, the rules in the original PHB and DMG for vehicles only covers overland travel. Relying on optional books released years after the DMG was published is stretching it.

I mean yes you can RANT (rules as needlessly transformed) all you want. But if brooms were supposed to be vehicles and we were supposed to use the rules from a mod, the mod would state that they apply to brooms. There would be errata that clarified things. There's not.

So my preference is RARR (rules are really rulings). Maybe ROAR (rules Oofta asserted rightly). RAD (rules as decided)? :unsure:

P.S. the acronyms are jokes, there's nothing wrong if you just want to RANT.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
When it comes to brooms as vehicles, I don't personally find it helpful. First, the rules in the original PHB and DMG for vehicles only covers overland travel. Relying on optional books released years after the DMG was published is stretching it.
Player's Handbook page 182

Characters in wagons, carriages, or other land vehicles choose a pace as normal. Characters in waterborne vessels are limited to the speed of the vessel (see chapter 5, "Equipment"), and they don't suffer penalties for a fast pace or gain benefits from a slow pace. Depending on the vessel and the sized of the crew, ships might be able to travel for up to 24 hours per day.

Certain special mounts, such as a pegasus or a griffon, or special vehicles, such as a carpet of flying, allow you to travel more swiftly. The Dungeon Master's Guide contains more information on special methods of travel.
Hey look, the basic rules calls the carpet of flying a vehicle. D&D beyond even uses broom of flying:

It isn't a creature. It lets you ride it. That is a vehicle.

I like this idea. While the only vehicle rules that specify that are for the land infernal war machines, taking the approach of it having its own turn and using its own action economy to move based on the water vehicles and controlled creatures isn't necessarily a perfect fit either.
But, "Movement and various Action options require a certain number of crew to be present on the ship. These crew are spending their entire turns "too busy managing the ship to do anything else during combat", and do not appear to actually roll initiative"

So a broom (and carpet) just has a crew of 1, and if that crew isn't using their action to run the vehicle, the vehicle is uncontrolled.

--

I am not saying this is a mandatory reading. I'm just saying that this removes the entire "the broom is too good" for its rarity, and still makes it very good.

Uncommon:

Broom:
Requires you to crew it, 50' speed.
Boots: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 30' flying speed, 120 minutes before a cooldown.

One no longer dominates the other.

Rare:

Wings:
Requires you to attune to it, gives you 60' flying speed for 1 hour with 1d12 hour cooldown.

Is much faster than Boots for most PCs.

Very Rare:

Carpet:
Requires you to crew it, speed inverse to capacity.

Either is extremely fast 80' with 200 lbs capacity, or high capacity 800 lbs 30' speed; it has a significantly better capacity:speed profile than the broom. The 800 lbs one can have 1 pilot with lots of PCs having their action free. (Also note it can handle 2x capacity for 1/2 speed; even the smallest carpet can out-speed a broom at any weight level).
 
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Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Player's Handbook page 182




Hey look, the basic rules calls the carpet of flying a vehicle. D&D beyond even uses broom of flying:

It isn't a creature. It lets you ride it. That is a vehicle.


But, "Movement and various Action options require a certain number of crew to be present on the ship. These crew are spending their entire turns "too busy managing the ship to do anything else during combat", and do not appear to actually roll initiative"

So a broom (and carpet) just has a crew of 1, and if that crew isn't using their action to run the vehicle, the vehicle is uncontrolled.

--

I am not saying this is a mandatory reading. I'm just saying that this removes the entire "the broom is too good" for its rarity, and still makes it very good.

Uncommon:
Broom: Requires you to crew it, 50' speed.
Boots: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 30' flying speed, 120 minutes before a cooldown.

One no longer dominates the other.

Rare:

Wings: Requires you to attune to it, gives you 60' flying speed for 1 hour with 1d12 hour cooldown.

Is much faster than Boots for most PCs.

Very Rare:

Carpet: Requires you to crew it, speed inverse to capacity.

Either is extremely fast 80' with 200 lbs capacity, or high capacity 800 lbs 30' speed; it has a significantly better capacity:speed profile than the broom. The 800 lbs one can have 1 pilot with lots of PCs having their action free.
There are no general rules in the PHB for vehicles in combat in the PHB. In addition, I don't assume all vehicles work the same. There's a difference between piloting a sailing ship that requires a crew and what is effectively a flying motorcycle.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
There are no general rules in the PHB for vehicles in combat in the PHB. In addition, I don't assume all vehicles work the same. There's a difference between piloting a sailing ship that requires a crew and what is effectively a flying motorcycle.
That's true. I'd certainly allow a player to dash while driving a wagon/coach, for example. It would be very weird to me if you couldn't drive fast (during combat) on a wagon. How would you do good Western-style wagon chases if they only travelled at one speed? (Which is a very different thing to how far you can take it in overland travel in a day - I have no problem with it being limited to about the same as walking (slower even) when travelling for days at a time.
 

That's true. I'd certainly allow a player to dash while driving a wagon/coach, for example. It would be very weird to me if you couldn't drive fast (during combat) on a wagon. How would you do good Western-style wagon chases if they only travelled at one speed? (Which is a very different thing to how far you can take it in overland travel in a day - I have no problem with it being limited to about the same as walking (slower even) when travelling for days at a time.
In order for wagon to move faster it would be the horses pulling it that would have to take the dash action, not the driver.

The trouble with treating brooms and carpets as vehicles is it curtails the ability to have fights whilst riding them. Something that is common in the fiction D&D is drawing these items from.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
In order for wagon to move faster it would be the horses pulling it that would have to take the dash action, not the driver.

The trouble with treating brooms and carpets as vehicles is it curtails the ability to have fights whilst riding them. Something that is common in the fiction D&D is drawing these items from.
Well, if they have the "tell it where to go as an action" but the vehicle keeps on following your last order after you make it, you can fight while on them.

It is just awkward.

You order the broom to go over there, and then end your turn. Next turn you attack as it continues to move. So you'll either get long, sweeping movement arcs and attacks, or tight maneuvering that isn't always where you want to go while sometimes getting a shot off.

Then add a feat
Broom Pilot
You have extensive practice with piloting magical vehicles. When controlling a broom of flying or other magical vehicle
  • You do not have to spend an action to change where it is going on your turn.
  • You have advantage on saves and checks to avoid being knocked off it
  • When you take the dash action while piloting a magical vehicle, you can instead make the vehicle dash.
To express how good the Broom of Flying is, compare this feat plus a broom to winged boots.

Your movement speed is 50' instead of 30', you are down 1 feat, and up 1 attunement slot. A feat that gives you 20' of movement speed and an attunement slot is a top-tier feat.

That permits people who want to be broom-athletes to be one, at the cost of a bit of investment, while not making the broom into a crazy broken good uncommon magic item.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
In order for wagon to move faster it would be the horses pulling it that would have to take the dash action, not the driver.

The trouble with treating brooms and carpets as vehicles is it curtails the ability to have fights whilst riding them. Something that is common in the fiction D&D is drawing these items from.
While that's obviously technically true, when it comes to a Wagon, are the horses really mechanically considered, other than the fluff of what's powering it? Or in otherwords, is that distinction important?
 

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