David vs Goliath tactics

[hong]

From Felon's thread in Rules:

When fighting monsters of large size or greater, players often want to do stuff like jump on its back and stab it, or tumble underneath it and stab its underbelly. They see it in fiction, so they want to try it in the game. Unfortunately, as far as the PHB is concerned, if you enter a monster's square, then you're trying to grapple, bull rush, or overrun it. All of which work heavily against a smaller creatuer.

Is there any support for tactics like this in sourcebooks?

So, how about some changes to combat:

- You can occupy the same square as an enemy creature, if it's larger than you.

- Anyone sharing a square with an enemy (whom they're not grappling with) takes a -4 penalty to attacks and AC, just like being squeezed. (This cancels out if you attack the guy in your square.)

- Creatures size L or larger don't threaten the squares they occupy. (So they'll have to move to attack someone squeezing them.)

- They also lose their Dex bonus to AC against opponents in their squares (whom they're not grappling with).

 

[trav_laney]

So, how about some changes to combat:

- You can occupy the same square as an enemy creature, if it's larger than you.

- Anyone sharing a square with an enemy (whom they're not grappling with) takes a -4 penalty to attacks and AC, just like being squeezed. (This cancels out if you attack the guy in your square.)

- Creatures size L or larger don't threaten the squares they occupy. (So they'll have to move to attack someone squeezing them.)

- They also lose their Dex bonus to AC against opponents in their squares (whom they're not grappling with).

Here's my two cents...if it's worth even that much...

1. I'd say that the creature must be at least 3 size categories larger, whose vital areas are out of reach. A human (Medium size) trying to occupy the same space as a horse (Large) or an elephant (Huge) is going to get trampled, and a purple worm's body (Gargantuan) sits on the ground without leaving room for maneuvering. This would be perfect for Huge spiders, however.

2. Broken. If squeezing is involved, it should use the rules for grappling.

3. Broken. You can swat a mosquito if it is "in your space," even though you are 4 size categories larger (Fine vs. Medium). Why couldn't a great wyrm do likewise?

4. Good rule...well-balanced, and it makes sense. A person occupying the space of a tremendous monster would have to pay special attention to those crushing legs, and wouldn't be as free to move around.

 

[hong]

Here's my two cents...if it's worth even that much...

1. I'd say that the creature must be at least 3 size categories larger, whose vital areas are out of reach. A human (Medium size) trying to occupy the same space as a horse (Large) or an elephant (Huge) is going to get trampled, and a purple worm's body (Gargantuan) sits on the ground without leaving room for maneuvering. This would be perfect for Huge spiders, however.

? Huge < Gargantuan....

2. Broken. If squeezing is involved, it should use the rules for grappling.

The point of this was so that people can get in close, _without_ having to involve grappling. See original quote.

3. Broken. You can swat a mosquito if it is "in your space," even though you are 4 size categories larger (Fine vs. Medium). Why couldn't a great wyrm do likewise?

Because it makes life more interesting for those who want to fight great wyrms, of course!

D&D is already humanocentric in many ways. This is just icing on the cake.

 

[MarauderX]

Here's my two cents...if it's worth even that much...

1. I'd say that the creature must be at least 3 size categories larger, whose vital areas are out of reach. A human (Medium size) trying to occupy the same space as a horse (Large) or an elephant (Huge) is going to get trampled, and a purple worm's body (Gargantuan) sits on the ground without leaving room for maneuvering. This would be perfect for Huge spiders, however.

2. Broken. If squeezing is involved, it should use the rules for grappling.

3. Broken. You can swat a mosquito if it is "in your space," even though you are 4 size categories larger (Fine vs. Medium). Why couldn't a great wyrm do likewise?

4. Good rule...well-balanced, and it makes sense. A person occupying the space of a tremendous monster would have to pay special attention to those crushing legs, and wouldn't be as free to move around.

I agree with all of Trav's points. Right on the money with the 3 level sizes difference.

 

[hong]

Change to 1. You can occupy the same space as an enemy creature if it's at least 2 sizes larger than you. (Large horses aren't that much bigger, but Huge giants/elephants fit the bill and I'd like these rules to be applicable before you start facing Gargantuan critters routinely.)

Change to 3. Instead of not threatening, if you're sharing the same space as a creature at least 2 sizes larger than you, you gain a 50% miss chance from its attacks (it gets in its own way trying to hit you). This doesn't protect you from targeted spells/effects. (cf displacement spell)

 

[Nifft]

I've been toying with the idea of fractal terrain dimension, expressed in penalty (or lack thereof) for different sizes. A Colossal dragon does not care if there is underbrush which hinders Medium humanoids; the rough terrain has the "rough" quality for sizes between Small and Large (inclusive). Stairs have a Climb DC for sizes Tiny and smaller. Trees are "rough" terrain for Huge and larger monsters; they are cover for the rest of us.

Likewise, the rules have some "size range" for various effects already. You can't trip someone who is two sizes larger than you, for example.

So let's extend that:

- Any creature at least three sizes smaller than you can occupy your square without grappling; any creature at least three sizes larger than you can use a special Crush attack against you.

- If you are a smaller creature occupying a larger foe's square, you may make a special Feint, using your Hide check instead of Bluff. If you succeed, your foe is flat-footed against your next attack (as usual), and additionally he cannot make a Crush attack against you. (Improved Feint quickens this special Feint, and you may use Bluff as normal if you prefer.)

- If you are a smaller creature occupying a larger foe's square, all other opponents have cover from you, and you have cover from them.

- If a smaller foe is occupying your square, opponents outside your square all gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls, because you're all distracted and stuff.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

No big fan of size-equivariant rules (this ain't GURPS, it's a human-centered world), but this looks good:

- If you are a smaller creature occupying a larger foe's square, all other opponents have cover from you, and you have cover from them.

This can also replace the stupid shooting-into-grapple rules.

 

[Nifft]

(this ain't GURPS, it's a human-centered world)

Mostly. Halflings exist; anything naughty that a Human can do to Huge Dragon, a Halfling should be able to do to a Large Ogre.

And a Wizard's Tiny familiar should be able to do it to a Medium humanoid... perhaps briefly.

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

Okay, so:

1. You can occupy the same square as an enemy creature without grappling, if it's at least 2 sizes larger than you. (Large horses aren't that much bigger, but Huge giants/elephants fit the bill and I'd like these rules to be applicable before you start facing Gargantuan critters routinely.)

2. If you are occupying the same square as an opponent, all other opponents (ie, except the one whose square you're occupying) have cover from you, and you have cover from them.

2a. If you make a ranged attack at an opponent sharing a square with another creature and you miss due to cover + armour/nat armour, you have a 50% chance of hitting the other creature. (replaces firing-into-grapple rule)​

3. If you're in the same square as a creature at least 2 sizes larger than you (but not grappling), you gain a 50% miss chance from its attacks (it gets in its own way trying to hit you). This doesn't protect you from targeted spells/effects. (cf displacement spell)

4. If you're in the same square as a creature at least 2 sizes larger than you (but not grappling), it loses its Dex bonus to AC against your attacks.