Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Continual Flame Interactions

[DrSpunj]

This following situation came up in our game last night and my DM and I disagreed on what light/darkness should've been around after everything happened. I'm hoping someone here can clarify the situation with rules back-up, either for or against me so we know what to do next time.

My character is a Cleric of Pelor with what is essentially a spelunking helmet made with Continual Flame (3rd Cleric). We also had a Light Cantrip cast on something. We were fighting some Yuan-ti in an underground tunnel; one or more of these guys could apparently cast Deeper Darkness at will (I'm not looking to check ).

One of the Yuan-ti cast Deeper Darkness, cancelling out my Continual Flame helmet. (Makes sense, Deeper Darkness' description says it counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level.)

I cast Daylight in response. Here is where we started arguing about the effects. Both spells (Daylight & Deeper Darkness) state they counter or dispel each other, yet both have a paragraph above that stating if what happens when the two occur together. That paragraph is:

Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily [emphasis mine] negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Reverse the spells for the identical paragraph under the Deeper Darkness description. The word temporarily leads me to believe that both spells are still around and active, but where they overlap their effects cancel and "the prevailing light conditions exist". With this line of reasoning my thought was that my Continual Flame helmet was "on" again and everyone could see to fight.

My DM had two problems with this. First, he figured if the Deeper Darkness was still around it was still strong enough to suppress the Continual Flame helmet. Second, the next round he wanted to have the Yuan-ti cast Deeper Darkness again and he figured 2 Deeper Darknesses were greater than 1 Daylight so everything would be dark again. Before we got to the next round he realized the Yuan-ti couldn't fight any better in the dark than we could so he didn't have them to that and we continued the battle with things lighter toward me and dark enough near them (20-25' away) that everyone in melee near them got total darkness/50% concealment.

With all this said and done I want to know what people think the rules say about what light and dark is still around. I'm also curious as to the following specific questions.

1) With Daylight and Deeper Darkness both having the same 2 paragraphs, one after the other, that apparently contradict each other about what happens when they are together, what actually happens? Are they both there but cancel each other so they essentially come off the stack? (Note: Deeper Darkness lasts 1 day/level while Daylight only lasts 10 min/lvl so they will only overlap while Daylight is still around.) Or do they dispel each other so they are gone and never heard from again?

2) Do 2 Deeper Darknesses (or 1000 of them) do any better against 1 Daylight spell than just 1 of them? My inclination is no if they just temporarily negate each other for awhile. I say that because one of the guidelines of the game is "similar effects don't stack" so I do not believe having 2 or 1000 is any better than 1 against a Daylight spell.

Thanks in advance for trying to clarify the rules here.

 

[pontus]

If you bring a daylight spell and a deeper darkness spell into the same area then they temporarily negate each other.

If you cast deeper darkness with the intention of dispelling a light spell then both your spell and the spell you want to dispel go away.

 

[DrSpunj]

If you bring a daylight spell and a deeper darkness spell into the same area then they temporarily negate each other.

If you cast deeper darkness with the intention of dispelling a light spell then both your spell and the spell you want to dispel go away.

Okay, with that simple rewording and some more thought I'm now thinking of things this way:

1) Either spell can be used to counter the other while one is being cast. Result: both go away without effect.

2) Either spell can be cast directly at the other one with the intention of dispelling it. While the dispel will be automatic (like Haste and Slow), it will be much tougher to use Daylight to dispel Deeper Darkness (than vice versa) since they are both Touch range spells.

3) If both spells are cast individually and brought within 60' of each, wherever they overlap their effects essentially cancel each other out and therefore whatever existed before is okay. With our group in an underground tunnel even the Light cantrip should provide light as long as it is within the area of overlap of the two higher level spells. My Continual Flame helmet should also be okay.

Are these correct?

Either way, what about the question regarding 2 Deeper Darknesses brought into range of a single Daylight spell? Assume we are outdoors at noon during a clear day. In the areas of overlap one Deeper Darkness "temporarily negates" the Daylight. Does that mean the second Deeper Darkness makes everything dark? Or because "similiar effects don't stack in 3E" is it sunny out?

Thanks.

 

[Hatchling Dragon]

Just a personal view of things but I'll offer my reasoning anyhow. After re-re-reading the various light and darkness spell description, as well as looking over WotC's PHB errata/clarifications, I note they have some 'splainin to do. The way things stand, barring a Sage Advice I haven't heard of (ie: any Sage Advice nearly), they're very vague.

Noting this, here's how I'd rule, and why I figure it should be this way.

Basic rule, 'similiar effects can't stack' would seem to indicate that two Daylight spells wouldn't be any brighter than a single one. If you were to use a house rule that more than one is brighter than one then you could theoretically keep casting it (say via wand) and end up with light bright enough to perhaps damage those Undead that can't be hurt by magical light. They would, probably, also have indicated how to handle multiple incidences of a single spell like that, but there's nothing of the sort I've seen.

Descriptions are consistant, if the Light/Dark spell is of lower level than the spell in question (ie: Light inside a Deeper Darkness) the lesser spell(s) don't work at all. Nowhere does it say that the Area of Effect over-lap, and thus canceled-out, doesn't count for this purpose. Thus your Light and Cont. Flame Helmet wouldn't function as long as they were inside the AoE of that Deeper Darkness spell. The Deeper Darkness is canceling out the Daylight, but it's still there and strong enough to totaly negate the effect of the lesser magics.

Finally, on the subject of Dispelling via opposing spells; they make enough references to 'cancel or dispel' that I'm led to believe that they did intend for someone to be able to cast light spells to permanently Dispel thier darkness counterparts, even if one has a much longer duration. (I also think that's a missed bit of errata, it should probably be 1/hr per level as well). As long as one or the other isn't a Permanent type magic/item/spell that is. Then you'd be back to temporary supression.

Hatchling Dragon

 

[DrSpunj]

Basic rule, 'similiar effects can't stack' would seem to indicate that two Daylight spells wouldn't be any brighter than a single one. If you were to use a house rule that more than one is brighter than one then you could theoretically keep casting it (say via wand) and end up with light bright enough to perhaps damage those Undead that can't be hurt by magical light. They would, probably, also have indicated how to handle multiple incidences of a single spell like that, but there's nothing of the sort I've seen.

Agree.

Descriptions are all consistant, if the Light/Dark spell is of lower level than the spell in question (ie: Light inside a Deeper Darkness) the lesser spell(s) don't work. It doesn't say that canceled spells' Area of Effect don't count for this. Thus your Light and Cont. Flame Helmet wouldn't function as long as they were inside the AoE of that Deeper Darkness spell.

To clarify since it's relevant, I believe they all say "equal or lower level". Continual Flame, Daylight and Deeper Darkness are all Clr 3. I'm still not swayed here. The phrase "temporarily negated" says to me that the Deeper Darkness isn't really effective in the "areas of overlapping effect", so I really think the Light cantrip and Continual Flame helmet should function as the Deeper Darkness isn't really there because of Daylight. I could be wrong which is why I'm asking.

Finally, on the subject of Dispelling via opposing magic; they make enough references to 'cancel or dispel' that I'm led to beleive that they intended for you to be able to cast your shorter-duration light spells to permanently Dispel thier long-lasting darkness magics. As long as one or the other isn't a Permanent type magic/item/spell. Then you'd be back to temporary supression.

That makes some sense also. I still think it would be tough to use Daylight to dispel Deeper Darkness since you have to find the center of the Deeper Darkness to Touch and it's pitch black!

Thanks.

 

[Number47]

After re-reading the spells myself, I think I have an opinion to offer. Both the Light and the Daylight say they don't function in an area of magical darkness. So the Deeper Darkness cancels them both at the same time, as well as being canceled by both at the same time. Continual flame doesn't read like those, but I think it should. In the book, it's an illusion, but has been errata'd to be an evocation (light). So it should also cancel and be cancelled by Deeper Darkness. What I think these explanatory paragraphs are getting at is that, if the surrounding conditions are already dark, then only non-magical light will illuminate the areas where the various spells overlap. On the otherhand, if the surrounding conditions are light out, only non-magical darkness will work (or a different form of concealment, like fog).

 

[Hypersmurf]

On the otherhand, if the surrounding conditions are light out, only non-magical darkness will work.

Like blotting out the sun with a giant Space-Parasol!

Mwahahahaha!

(We're so deliciously evil...)

-Hyp.

 

[Grendel]

Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Deeper darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light

my interpretation:
Deeper darkness can
1. temporarily negates daylight (and presumably all other lower level light spells)
2. it can be used to counter any light spell of equal level or lower
3. it can be used to dispel any light spell of equal level or lower (as if using a displel magic spell)

all these effects are listed in the spell description even if the exact mechanic is not described.

In any event continual light and light are [light] spells, not prevailing light conditions. So all magical light of equal or lower level will be stopped by deeper darkness (that is why heighten spell is useful).

 

[IanB]

Hmm. I think not allowing light spells to work in the cancel/overlap area leads to a bit of an odd situation, where a lit candle will provide light in there but a magical light won't work. It just seems strange to me.

And what about glowing magic weapons? They 'shed light equal to a torch' but they're magical. Is that the equivalent of the light spell? Or is it really the equivalent of continual flame? I can see arguments for both.

 

[bret]

Since the glow from a magical weapon is free, I would rate it as equal to the Light cantrip. So minor that it takes makes no noticable difference in the difficulty or time required to enchant the weapon.