D&D 5E DC in DnD: Superman

Stalker0

Legend
Mutants & Masterminds published an official version of DC with stats for the most of famous characters.
Thank you for the link, and I took a look to give me a sanity check to ensure I am covering core aspects of the heroes. M&M is a much more detailed and comprehensive system than 5e, so in order to give the heroes (the 5e treatment) I went with a significantly simplier model. Still its a good reference so thank you.
Batman did it, and he's only a regular human. At peak physical conditioning, but just a man.
Don't worry, I plan to give batman plenty of tricks to explain how he can take out Superman. So this is less about Superman's stats, and more about batman's.
TBH, strength, dex, and con should all be 30 or beyond. A lot of people don't realize just how truly overpowered Superman is.
Depends on the depiction. The limit of his strength has been depicted as being able to lift a car over his head with some difficulty all the way up to literally moving an entire planet.
I can post constitution feats for days on this forum but I really don't want to do that. I'm not even a superman fan. Here he is holding a miniature black hole.

So one of the key things I did with my Superman was to rationalize his feats and his "non-feats". How could a guy that moves at light speed still get hit? How could a guy that can move a star still get grappled by normal effects?

While there are several ways to do this, I used a simple "5e esque" approach to the problem. I separated his core stats from his cosmic like feats to create a superman that in theory can do the main feats that are ascribed to him, but still provide reasonable stats for the 5e system.

For example, Cosmic Strength: Superman has no limit to his carrying capacity, and gains +27 to his melee damage (included in his statblock). His attacks deal double damage to objects and structures.

This is a big one, no carrying capacity limit. So to the question "Can superman lift, carry, or push it?" The answer is.... "yes". Superman effectively has infinite strength....but in the comic book means of "lifting things" and not in the dnd way of "avoid grapples and dealing damage".

Similar with his endurance. While Superman has a high but mortal con, these abilities:

Heroic Recovery: At the start of his turn, Superman regains 30 hit points and removes all conditions currently affecting him, unless the condition was imposed by an enhancement spell or effect.

Man of Steel: Superman takes no damage from any effect unless it is generated by a spell or a magic item. When Superman rolls less than an 8 on a saving throw, treat the die as if he rolled an 8. Superman does not need to breathe.

Gives him the core Superman resiliency. Regular old saving throws can't hinder superman. You could make a poison that would effect Supes (higher DC)...for a few seconds and then he is 100% fine. Sure Superman can get exhausted....for a few seconds than he is back fresh as a daisy. Yes your electricity (that doesn't do any actual damage) is holding up Superman....for a few seconds than he rips off the cords and goes and kicks your butt.

Or Superman's speed? While Superman has a very hittable AC, and his tactical speed is "only really good" we give him this:

Cosmic Speed: When performing the Dash Action, Superman can move to any location on the same plane. Superman can move through any barrier to get to the location, except ones immune to damage.

To showcase he's insane speed ability, while at the same time allowing for the fact that Superman is hit frequently in the comics. So a lower dex combined with these type of crazy speed abilities.



My goal is to capture the core essence of superman's feats but with the simplicity of 5e monster design. Obviously my audience will have to tell me how I did, but I do greatly encourage people to separate the abilities from the stats, you have to look at the whole package to decide if this superman can reflect the general feats of the comics and cartoon movies.

My last note here, just as Dnd is not LoTR, dnd is also not comic book stories either. In dnd, any hero can roll a 1 on a saving throw. Magic doesn't "just work", there is a chance of failure, sometimes a decent amount. The graceful and charismatic champion one minute, can accidentally trip and fall down some stairs. Dnd allows for possibilities that simply do not exist compared to when an author makes all the rules. So we have to reconcile that in our thinking. We can't always say "Superman would NEVER fail against that" ..... because in Dnd terms.... there is always that chance. The goal here is not to force Dnd to play by comic book rules....but to adapt comic books as faithfully as possible but still in the arena of how dnd operates.
 
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dave2008

Legend
When you responded I assumed you were someone who knew about comic books to some degree. Bringing up bronze age superman who is "more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" is a bad faith argument. Superman in the current continuity moves at speeds faster than light and can literally destroy continents with his bare hands. Can take out a planet if he sundips.
Why is that a bad faith argument? He literally said it "Depends on the depiction." You are referencing a particular comic book version, while the OP sad: " ...a big fan of the DC animated movies, so that will be a draw of my inspiration as well.".

I am not precisely sure about the DC animated movies (though I have seen some), but the cartoons often depict superman much, much less powerful than being able to destroy continents with his hands. You made assumptions, @Flamestrike did not. So who is really arguing in bad faith?
 
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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
I can't get on board with that -- he definitely gets damaged by strong beings. Doomsday literally beats him to death (no magic or anything; just brute force).
The cool thing about NPCs is we can break the rules for them.
Just giving Superman Damage resistance to non-magical damage and also a Damage Threshold (like a vehicle or building) would model the rules for his particular kind of invulnerability quite well. Then whenever he encounters a siege monster (which Doomsday would totally be) they can ignore part of his defenses because they are so strong.
 

UnknownDyson

Explorer
Why is that a bad faith argument? He literally said it "Depends on the depiction." You are referencing a particular comic book version, while the OP sad: " ...a big fan of the DC animated movies, so that will be a draw of my inspiration as well.".

I am referencing the current 21st century Superman comic book depiction that has been more or less the default version of the character since before I was born. Would it be fair to say that the onus of specificity would be on the poster to designate if you were not using that version?

How could a guy that moves at light speed still get hit? How could a guy that can move a star still get grappled by normal effects?

ut the cartoons often depict superman much, much less powerful than being able to destroy continents with his hands. You made assumptions, @Flamestrike did not. So who is really arguing in bad faith?

This goes into why I'm not the biggest Superman fan, and why I believe it is hard to write decent stories for the character. Superman is a character that is so powerful that his biggest conflicts are meant to be moral ones. His upbringing and sense of morality are what lead him to be a savior to the people and not a dictator that conquered the planet overnight. Superman is constantly limiting his powers and reducing his overall strength so that he doesn't straight up turn people into meat paste or kill thousands in collateral damage when he encounters a foe. That is usually his biggest quandary, how can he accomplish his goal of protecting everyone, even from himself.

Evil versions of superman or enemy kryptonians usually don't share those values and you can see what supermans powers look like when he throws restraint out the window, see Injustice, Superboy-Prime, General Zod, and Ultraman. Comicbook superman is generally depicted as weaker but we still see this phenomenon. This is why superman's archnemesis Lex Luthor is usually an economic/ intellectual threat that Superman can't simply defeat with brute strength, because then he wouldn't be the hero anymore. So to answer the question in no uncertain terms a guy that can move at light speed gets hit because he 1) allows himself to get hit 2) because that's how the story was written.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I am referencing the current 21st century Superman comic book depiction that has been more or less the default version of the character since before I was born. Would it be fair to say that the onus of specificity would be on the poster to designate if you were not using that version?
I can't speak for anybody else, but as a normal human being I can say that I don't feel like conversations and fans showing off their creations should be subjected to aggressive rigorous courtroom-style rules, and I'd go further and say that you completely misspelled "Cool! That's an awesome effort, though I have a few questions!" :)

"Bad faith argument"? C’mon!
 

dave2008

Legend
I am referencing the current 21st century Superman comic book depiction that has been more or less the default version of the character since before I was born. Would it be fair to say that the onus of specificity would be on the poster to designate if you were not using that version?
written.
The OP did specify a different version (DC animated movies), I even reiterated that in my post. That is why your comment was so odd. You made the jump to a recent comic version,
 


UnknownDyson

Explorer
I apologize if I offended anyone. I used the term bad faith because bronze age superman that maxed out at lifting a car was brought up. This didn't seem to be that. I don't think this adaptation is bad, neither do I think that I said anything offensive beyond offering argumentative critique.
 

Hatmatter

Laws of Mordenkainen, Elminster, & Fistandantilus
Thank you for the link, and I took a look to give me a sanity check to ensure I am covering core aspects of the heroes. M&M is a much more detailed and comprehensive system than 5e, so in order to give the heroes (the 5e treatment) I went with a significantly simplier model. Still its a good reference so thank you.

Don't worry, I plan to give batman plenty of tricks to explain how he can take out Superman. So this is less about Superman's stats, and more about batman's.




So one of the key things I did with my Superman was to rationalize his feats and his "non-feats". How could a guy that moves at light speed still get hit? How could a guy that can move a star still get grappled by normal effects?

While there are several ways to do this, I used a simple "5e esque" approach to the problem. I separated his core stats from his cosmic like feats to create a superman that in theory can do the main feats that are ascribed to him, but still provide reasonable stats for the 5e system.

For example, Cosmic Strength: Superman has no limit to his carrying capacity, and gains +27 to his melee damage (included in his statblock). His attacks deal double damage to objects and structures.

This is a big one, no carrying capacity limit. So to the question "Can superman lift, carry, or push it?" The answer is.... "yes". Superman effectively has infinite strength....but in the comic book means of "lifting things" and not in the dnd way of "avoid grapples and dealing damage".

Similar with his endurance. While Superman has a high but mortal con, these abilities:

Heroic Recovery: At the start of his turn, Superman regains 30 hit points and removes all conditions currently affecting him, unless the condition was imposed by an enhancement spell or effect.

Man of Steel: Superman takes no damage from any effect unless it is generated by a spell or a magic item. When Superman rolls less than an 8 on a saving throw, treat the die as if he rolled an 8. Superman does not need to breathe.

Gives him the core Superman resiliency. Regular old saving throws can't hinder superman. You could make a poison that would effect Supes (higher DC)...for a few seconds and then he is 100% fine. Sure Superman can get exhausted....for a few seconds than he is back fresh as a daisy. Yes your electricity (that doesn't do any actual damage) is holding up Superman....for a few seconds than he rips off the cords and goes and kicks your butt.

Or Superman's speed? While Superman has a very hittable AC, and his tactical speed is "only really good" we give him this:

Cosmic Speed: When performing the Dash Action, Superman can move to any location on the same plane. Superman can move through any barrier to get to the location, except ones immune to damage.

To showcase he's insane speed ability, while at the same time allowing for the fact that Superman is hit frequently in the comics. So a lower dex combined with these type of crazy speed abilities.



My goal is to capture the core essence of superman's feats but with the simplicity of 5e monster design. Obviously my audience will have to tell me how I did, but I do greatly encourage people to separate the abilities from the stats, you have to look at the whole package to decide if this superman can reflect the general feats of the comics and cartoon movies.

My last note here, just as Dnd is not LoTR, dnd is also not comic book stories either. In dnd, any hero can roll a 1 on a saving throw. Magic doesn't "just work", there is a chance of failure, sometimes a decent amount. The graceful and charismatic champion one minute, can accidentally trip and fall down some stairs. Dnd allows for possibilities that simply do not exist compared to when an author makes all the rules. So we have to reconcile that in our thinking. We can't always say "Superman would NEVER fail against that" ..... because in Dnd terms.... there is always that chance. The goal here is not to force Dnd to play by comic book rules....but to adapt comic books as faithfully as possible but still in the arena of how dnd operates.
I think you did a great job with this build. It feels very D&D and yet captures the special qualities of Supes. Well done!
 

When you responded I assumed you were someone who knew about comic books to some degree. Bringing up bronze age superman who is "more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" is a bad faith argument. Superman in the current continuity moves at speeds faster than light and can literally destroy continents with his bare hands. Can take out a planet if he sundips.


I'll grant you the dexterity, but for the purpose of initiative, anyone going against him unless they were on the level of flash would have to have like -5 dex.



I can post constitution feats for days on this forum but I really don't want to do that. I'm not even a superman fan. Here he is holding a miniature black hole.


I agree with all of these.
Those constitution feats can almost invariably be put down to damage immunity.
 

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