DCC Level 0 Character Funnel is a Bad Concept

[Retreater]

I don't think so - sure, the funnel is a big part of their sales pitch, but it's usually just one or two sessions out of a whole campaign. I've been playing in a DCC campaign for more than a year, we reached 5th/6th level. I went into that campaign with a whoppin 3 characters left over from the funnel (not always playing all 3 of them) and subsequently lost only one of them, and it felt very much like a "normal" campaign in a gonzo setting and with lots of magical mishaps. I really liked it. You can cut out the funnel if you don't like it and still enjoy the rest of the campaign.

Serious question. Can I cut out the dice too? My players hate 'em. Can I just change it to a penalty to the die roll instead of changing the die size?

 

[Swanosaurus]

Serious question. Can I cut out the dice too? My players hate 'em. Can I just change it to a penalty to the die roll instead of changing the die size?

I'm not sure, I'm not that deep into the system ... I've always played it as written, never found it brillant, though it has a few very cool ideas (like the deed die). I guess it's an okay version of D&D. But if you don't like the dice, maybe you're better off adapting the DCC material you want to play to any other version of D&D, which shouldn't be much of a problem (the statblocks are pretty similar to stuff like Swords & Wizardry).

 

[Retreater]

That's an incredibly bad assumption to make.

I'll refrain from my usual hyperbole and give you the straight assumptions that I have about the character funnels, having read the rulebook and a few of the published adventures. Let me know if I'm way off base.

1) You completely roll randomly for your ability scores, race, and occupation. (Or get a scratch-off lottery character.) There are no mulligans, adjustments, rules for discarding "bad characters," etc. You play what you roll, regardless if it's nonsense, unviable, or a living god.
2) You create a stable of these characters - usually around four of them (but that can vary depending on the number of players).
3) More than likely one hit from anything will kill your 0-level character. One failed saving throw will also very likely kill your character.
4) You've got no real class abilities (because you don't have a class yet). You try to survive on your wits and the luck of the dice.
5) If you think there's a monster or other danger in the room, throw in your worst character to be the meat shield. After that character dies, your more capable character can try to attack from a range or run away.
6) You get to the end of the adventure and get to "level up" your surviving character. Because he was rolled randomly, he might not be what you wanted to play and may not be useful to the rest of the party.
7) If you're unlucky enough to lose all characters in your stable during the character funnel, I guess you just sit out the rest of the time? Hopefully you get to level up another player's survivor.

 

[MNblockhead]

I'm kind of a fan of DCC (mostly for the art and the adventure design, less for the rules, TBH), but I must confess that I too, still, struggle with funnels.
It's not that I have a problem with my characters dying; I'm usually the first one to throw even an experienced character under the bus for some more or less dramatically appropriate reason. There's always a new character idea just as attractive waiting around the corner.
I don't have a problem with random chargen, either; sometimes, it's frustrating because you get something boring, but most of the time, it's inspiring.

What I do have a problem with it is something I realized recently when running that adventure with the space jellyfish starship that the characters are supposed to enter in search for treasure (I can't remember the name - Danger from the Air or something along the lines):
So, the most crazy and adventurous villagers enter the jellyfish. Fine. Then, they start dying ... well, okay. That's what happens. But, as in most funnels, the only way to really continue is if the other characters act like psychopaths who don't really care that people they have known their whole lives - in one case, a husband - just died in a gruesome manner. They're not supposed to snap, to kneel at their side sobbing uncontrollably, or to just GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE ... because that what surely put an end to the adventure. Also, playing up the tragedy would go against the fun spirit of a funnel. I get it. It's just that I really, really can't get into playing that person that would loot their dead's husband body and then continue on, looking for more treausure. And it was obviously the same for my players: They were stumped at how to roleplay this, and the whole adventure devolved into "Well, I guess we're supposed to continue, so that's what we'll do", but in the end, we just broke it off.

I think the concept of the funnel could work for me if it is quite clear that the characters have no other choice than to continue, trying to stay alive - in a true horror-movie setup. But continuing out of curiosity or for treasure after losing a bunch of friends or at the very least acquaintances? No, I really don't want to keep playing that kind of people ...

A friend of mine ran a classic DCC funnel and I had a blash, but, yeah, I can see where you are coming from.

But I took the general idea of a fun, and some rules for level 0 characters in 5e that were published in an Adventurer's League module, and I started my last campaign with a funnel. The campaign was Rappan Athuk and lasted five years. In the first session, everyone rolled up four characters. We had 4 players, so 16 characters. They were part of a caravan travelling down the coast road and then inland to a small trading settlement (Zelkor's Ferry) in-land, close to the area of the mega dungeon.

I thinked it work, because their object was to get to Zelkor's Ferry. By the time they got into the dangerous section of the travel surrounded by wilderness and far from civilization, they just wanted to survive and get to the safety of Zelkor's Ferry.

The initial encounter involved a highly deadly foe. If it were just the 16 level-0 PCs they would have just been ground up. But there were part of a larger caravan that had many NPCs from merchants to guards. It did a great job of setting the deadly tone of the campaign and was more about organizing with the NPCs for their defense and surviving the massacre.

From the PCs who survived, the players level them up to level 1. For players that had more than one survive (and most did, through careful, tactical play or effective cowardice), they selected one as their main PC with the other(s) available on the "back bench" back at the settlement (and later at a stronghold they took over and built up) to be available if their main PC died.

I really enjoyed starting a campaign this way. I'm now enjoying Warhammer Fantasy where you don't start out particularly competent. You might be a stevedore, rat catcher, beggar...there are a lot of careers, most of which don't make you think of heroic fantasy. I just like game where you become heroes rather than start as heroes. I like funnels for games where character death is more likely and expected because it sets a tone and expectation for that style of game.

Even in DCC not every funnel has to be played as a meat grinder. Where you are just expected to continue to throw your lives away. It could be a deadly escape from captors. Your ship sinks and you find yourselves as cast aways in a dangerous area and need to find a way to safety or just to survive. There are lots of ways you can use a funnel that results in PC death that can still tell a meaningful story, one which can fuel the motivations of the survivors.

I can understand why many don't like the aesthetics of DCC or the funky dice and all the roll tables, the unreliable casting, and many other things about the rule system. But I never understood the funnel hate.

 

[Retreater]

But if you don't like the dice, maybe you're better off adapting the DCC material you want to play to any other version of D&D, which shouldn't be much of a problem (the statblocks are pretty similar to stuff like Swords & Wizardry).

It gets funky when you deal with the HP, Attack Bonuses, Saving Throws, Action Dice, etc. The power level almost seems closer to 3.x than S&W, just on my casual glance.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Even in DCC not every funnel has to be played as a meat grinder. Where you are just expected to continue to throw your lives away. It could be a deadly escape from captors. Your ship sinks and you find yourselves as cast aways in a dangerous area and need to find a way to safety or just to survive. There are lots of ways you can use a funnel that results in PC death that can still tell a meaningful story, one which can fuel the motivations of the survivors.

I totally agree - I just feel that some very good reason must exist for the characters to toughen up and see it through (usually that they don't have a choice); going into a dungeon and just shrugging of dozens of deaths to search for more treasure makes the whole thing too abstract for me, I stop believing in these characters.

 

[MNblockhead]

I'm not sure, I'm not that deep into the system ... I've always played it as written, never found it brillant, though it has a few very cool ideas (like the deed die). I guess it's an okay version of D&D. But if you don't like the dice, maybe you're better off adapting the DCC material you want to play to any other version of D&D, which shouldn't be much of a problem (the statblocks are pretty similar to stuff like Swords & Wizardry).

I like stepping up the dice. If you play on a VTT it is less of an issue. You could use a digital dice roller app at table as well. If you must play with physical dice--hey I get that! But if you love dice, I would think have more unusual dice to play with would be a plus. I mean this is a similar complaint many have with D&D. Their are plenty of great TTRPG systems that use d6, allowing them to be played with dice you almost certainly have at home and can easily buy. The funky dice are part of the DCC aesthetic and something most of the fans enjoy. That said their are way you can take a normal D&D set of dice and make rolls for d7s, d 24s, etc. E.g., for a d7, roll a d8 and just reroll 8s. See https://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15068 for more examples. Personally too convoluted for my taste. I live the dice chain and if I'm playing in person I would want the physical "Zocchi" dice.

For an online roller, see Online DCC dice roller: https://purplesorcerer.com/crawler.php
For most VTTs you can emulate any dice. You are just checking for a random number between 1 and X. Some VTTs or modules for them will support graphical versions of the Zocchi dice.

 

[Retreater]

I like stepping up the dice. If you play on a VTT it is less of an issue. You could use a digital dice roller app at table as well. If you must play with physical dice--hey I get that! But if you love dice, I would think have more unusual dice to play with would be a plus. I mean this is a similar complaint many have with D&D.

I don't know if my players are weird or what, but they are repulsed by the look of them. I think the d7 is the worst offender - with the weird shape and the numbers written on the lines.
Plus my players are big dice collectors - have expensive sets, thematic to their characters, etc. Purchasing all new sets and telling them to scrap their collections they've assembled over years just feels like a big ask.
Personally, I don't like how there are essentially several dice that look similar to a d20 in the set. And when you're running for a group that includes new players who are still confusing d8s, d10s, and d12s - well, adding 6 more die types is something I'm not crazy about.

 

[overgeeked]

1) You completely roll randomly for your ability scores, race, and occupation. (Or get a scratch-off lottery character.) There are no mulligans, adjustments, rules for discarding "bad characters," etc. You play what you roll, regardless if it's nonsense, unviable, or a living god.

With the caveat that the book explicitly says it's all up to the Judge and the Judge can decide to do things differently, sure. One of the most common "house rules" is to skip the 0-level funnel.

2) You create a stable of these characters - usually around four of them (but that can vary depending on the number of players).

Generally, yes.

3) More than likely one hit from anything will kill your 0-level character. One failed saving throw will also very likely kill your character.

Ish. Depends on the monster or the failed save. Your 0s can survive multiple hits and/or multiple failed saves depending on what they are. Some failed saves outright kill your PC. Some failed saves deal one damage. Same with monsters' attacks. Some hits will deal one damage, other hits will crit you for more than the sum total of the entire party's HP.

4) You've got no real class abilities (because you don't have a class yet). You try to survive on your wits and the luck of the dice.

Pretty much. And it's awesome.

5) If you think there's a monster or other danger in the room, throw in your worst character to be the meat shield. After that character dies, your more capable character can try to attack from a range or run away.

That is a typical strategy. And it makes for hilarious game play.

6) You get to the end of the adventure and get to "level up" your surviving character. Because he was rolled randomly, he might not be what you wanted to play and may not be useful to the rest of the party.

DCC's stance is balance through randomness. There are no builds. You get the characters the dice give you and you make choices for how to run those characters. If you throw away your crap characters, fine. If you guard your high stat characters, fine. You're not going to be able to build a god because you bought more books, while the rest of the table plays peons because they only have the quickstart. All the races and classes have abilities that make them useful to the rest of the party.

And again, there's the ever-present caveat that the Judge is free to change the rules. You utterly hate this aspect of the game? Cool. Either find a Judge who agrees or run it yourself however you prefer. Done.

7) If you're unlucky enough to lose all characters in your stable during the character funnel, I guess you just sit out the rest of the time? Hopefully you get to level up another player's survivor.

Only if the Judge is a raging wangrod. You go to Purple Sorcerer or grab some dice and generate a new four-pack and keep playing.

The two big things you're skipping over are the admonitions.

"The judge is always right. Let the rules bend to you not the other way around."

"Fear no rule. I know you will homebrew this game: I trust it will remain recognizable but different from as I conceived it. Such is as it should be."

The Judge is in charge of the game and the rules. If the Judge wants to change how the game works, they can. So arguments about RAW in DCC RPG are basically a waste of time. Yes, the book says a thing you don't like. So change it. It's that easy. "But the RAW..." You can change the rules. "But the RAW..." You can change the rules.

The real question is how much do you want to change before it's simply easier to let it go and move on.

 

[Swanosaurus]

Talking about funnels where it makes sense that the characters have to see them through, whatever the cost - does anyone know published ones? I really only know Sailors on the Starless Seas and Danger from the Air, and those are both examples of: "Actually, on the first death, at least some of the characters should by all logic get out and maybe try to save their mortally wounded friends."