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DCC RPG BETA, June 8th

Some things that make DCC faster:
1. No minis or mats (judge doesn't have to draw/build/position/erase or move/repeat). Makes a HUGE difference in speeding things up.

2. There aren't many cascading effects (multiple rounds) or interupts and players don't have to think so hard about what to do next.

3. Players don't fear character death quite as much (still nice to get to high levels but character creation doesn't take so long) so players act more on instinct and even roleplaying than what might be tactically best--no more long rounds as players debate and count squares and read powers/class abilities; players just react in character and go.

Why do I feel I just read:
1. "I wasn't even near the chest when the trap went off!" (Actual event during 1E play, often.)

2. Dumbed down. (Really, don't have to think so hard? I hope you meant this differently.)

3. Cheap, throw-away characters, so players don't care about long-term character story development.

I started off really interested in this system. Reading the beta document gave me pause, but did not strip away all thoughts of running this. But if you and the majority of those who have run this system agree with your assessment the way I'm reading it you will probably never see me trying this game.
 

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Also, we don't know what casting DCs of high level clerical spells are yet. They may scale differently (though they probably don't).

Additionally, Clerics can reduce the spell casting penalty they generate and don't suffer from arcane corruption like Wizards do.

I've yet to play the game though, so it's possible that Clerics just suck like you suggest :D

"Compare the result to the casting table for that spell. In general, your spell succeeds if your spell check is equal to or higher than a base DC of 10 + (2x spell level). The higher you roll, the more extraordinary the result, according to the casting table." - page 92

I'm not saying Cleric suck, btw, but their spellcasting is quite punishing.

Interestingly, given their ability to sacrifice gold to eliminate these penalties, it means that paying attention to wealth given out is possibly even *more* important than in any form of D&D!

Cheers!
 

Why do I feel I just read:.
I don't mean to give offense, but you took quite a leap from what I wrote to how you interpreted what I wrote. Maybe you read some things into my post that I didn't write? You'd have to make that call.

1. "I wasn't even near the chest when the trap went off!" (Actual event during 1E play, often.)
I don't understand your first point. D&D 3.0 onwards is one of the few RPGs out there that really encourages a battle map and minis. In DCC, whichever character the player has in his front row of PCs is considered to be next to a trap or subject to an ambush. If what you mean is that in the example you gave is that that group of players and judge can't work together to get combat to work and the players feel they need rules to keep the judge playing "fair" than yeah, DCC may not be the game for that group.

2. Dumbed down. (Really, don't have to think so hard? I hope you meant this differently.)
I think just having the rules needed to play and not having so many options that players take many minutes to go is good. D&D combat can bog down in minutia and players can get bored. Don't take my word for it; threads are all over the internet about the length of 4E combat and in various editions of D&D players getting bored and distracted. If you never see this happen and it isn't a problem for your group, then DCC may not add something useful in this regards for you.

3. Cheap, throw-away characters, so players don't care about long-term character story development.
How do you like to get long-term character story development? Is it something the player scripts and hands to the GM? Or is it more organic and unfolds from game play? In DCC, long-term character story development is much more driven by events and how a character either shapes that moment or allows it to shape them (much like real life actually). If you want more scripted control, than DCC may not work so well without some tweaks.

I started off really interested in this system. Reading the beta document gave me pause, but did not strip away all thoughts of running this. But if you and the majority of those who have run this system agree with your assessment the way I'm reading it you will probably never see me trying this game.
If you care to share why you were interested at first and in what way the beta gave you pause but didn't strip away all thoughts of running DCC I can respond.

Otherwise, if you decide DCC is not for you that is okay too. We can both be fellow gamers who play different games to enjoy the hobby and see both playstyles and game systems as equally valid but simply meeting different needs! I'm cool with you playing whatever system works for you and your players.

Would I be happy if you tried DCC and liked it? Of course! That would give me someone additional to talk to about the game. But maybe DCC doesn't meet your needs and if reading this thread saves you some time and money than that's good too.
 

I don't mean to give offense, but you took quite a leap from what I wrote to how you interpreted what I wrote. Maybe you read some things into my post that I didn't write? You'd have to make that call.

Oh, it's definitely what I'm hearing, not exactly what you wrote. I didn't mean any offense either, but some of your positive comments seemed rather negative to me. But, that's a common matter of perspective and taste.

I don't understand your first point. D&D 3.0 onwards is one of the few RPGs out there that really encourages a battle map and minis. In DCC, whichever character the player has in his front row of PCs is considered to be next to a trap or subject to an ambush. If what you mean is that in the example you gave is that that group of players and judge can't work together to get combat to work and the players feel they need rules to keep the judge playing "fair" than yeah, DCC may not be the game for that group.

"That group" is my old AD&D group from 1985. Getting the Chessex mat back then wasn't required, but it sure made communication easier when it came to who was where.

I think just having the rules needed to play and not having so many options that players take many minutes to go is good. D&D combat can bog down in minutia and players can get bored. Don't take my word for it; threads are all over the internet about the length of 4E combat and in various editions of D&D players getting bored and distracted. If you never see this happen and it isn't a problem for your group, then DCC may not add something useful in this regards for you.

I was commenting more on your comment "don't have to think so hard." You'll also find many threads around here talking about how 4E "dumbed down" D&D and here you are saying that one doesn't have to "think so hard" when playing DCCRPG. See what I mean?

How do you like to get long-term character story development? Is it something the player scripts and hands to the GM? Or is it more organic and unfolds from game play? In DCC, long-term character story development is much more driven by events and how a character either shapes that moment or allows it to shape them (much like real life actually). If you want more scripted control, than DCC may not work so well without some tweaks.

It unfolds from game play. But I've seen that development grind to a halt when characters are dying numerous cheap deaths. It becomes more like a game of Paranoia. "Hi, I'm Bob the VIII!" "You look trustworthy, Bob the VIII, join our party!"

If you care to share why you were interested at first and in what way the beta gave you pause but didn't strip away all thoughts of running DCC I can respond.

The charts give me pause. Not because they're too cumbersome. Some quick copying to full sheets or even a card will make it easy enough. The randomness of charts like the ones in DCCRPG is fun at first, but becomes repetitive over time. We used Arms Laws for Rolemaster in 1E AD&D. The first time someone fumbled and rolled "tripped over an unseen imaginary dead turtle" it was fun. The 20th time, not so much. I've found that if I am going encounter repetitiveness, I will enjoy myself much more if the outcome is reliable. Like a D&D spell of any edition. The (usually) only variable is hit or miss (or save/no save). Otherwise the spell always does what's advertised.

Otherwise, if you decide DCC is not for you that is okay too. We can both be fellow gamers who play different games to enjoy the hobby and see both playstyles and game systems as equally valid but simply meeting different needs! I'm cool with you playing whatever system works for you and your players.

Of course. I just thought you might want to hear what others are reading into from your review. And I'm trying to get a better idea whether my concerns are common amongst those who've played.

Would I be happy if you tried DCC and liked it? Of course! That would give me someone additional to talk to about the game. But maybe DCC doesn't meet your needs and if reading this thread saves you some time and money than that's good too.

I appreciate the further clarifications.
 

The charts give me pause. Not because they're too cumbersome. Some quick copying to full sheets or even a card will make it easy enough. The randomness of charts like the ones in DCCRPG is fun at first, but becomes repetitive over time. We used Arms Laws for Rolemaster in 1E AD&D. The first time someone fumbled and rolled "tripped over an unseen imaginary dead turtle" it was fun. The 20th time, not so much. I've found that if I am going encounter repetitiveness, I will enjoy myself much more if the outcome is reliable. Like a D&D spell of any edition. The (usually) only variable is hit or miss (or save/no save). Otherwise the spell always does what's advertised.

I'll respond to this part of your post specifically than give some general feedback. DCC will be using random charts including spells. If you like a spell to do what is advertised that won't be the case in DCC. The spell will be like in Vance's work or other fantasy from the 60s and 70s--it will vary based both on user will and fate, moreso to user will but not always.

Also, thanks for the dialogue. I think it helps clarify one way that DCC can played (how I'm running it) and provide some insight for those curious about the game.

Here's a quick recap of what I like about DCC and what I saw working in the playtest I've run. I'll try to be factual and I may clarify with opinion after the facts.

1. No map or minis needed. I see this as a huge feature and not a bug. I can engage with the players more and the map less, I have less to buy and carry around, and it cuts down on adventure prep time (I don't have to find the right minis and maps). I didn't experience communication problems. In fact, no map and minis kept my players from getting distracted by counting squares and looking at the map rather than the scene in their mind's eye.

2. Combat not think so hard does that mean the game is it dumbed down?--I see what you mean. My point is I didn't have to juggle conditions, track marks, put skulls on for bloodied and handle multiple interrupts. Or in PF terms I didn't have to monitor various conditions with variable durations, AoO, reach, auras, look up lots of spells/monster abilities for monsters etc. Is the game dumbed down (ie more like a boardgame?). Not at all--in fact the board is gone and so are all the game pieces so the players have to treat things more like an ongoing story and react based on what is in their mind. They have to ask questions to clarify what is going on and respond to things as they unfold.

So less dumbed down or more smarted up I'd say--if you are looking to shift the player focus from tactical conflict with roleplay and exploration in between to a more seamless flowing narrative.

My brain can handle the story-based unfolding of events much more easily than my brain and hands can juggle all the fiddly bits of 4E and the conditions and page flipping of PF. I like both those systems but they are a lot of work to coordinate and run smoothly. Lots of planning, lots of details in the adventure (terrain info and conditions for 4E, looked up spells and abilities in PF etc.).

3. Is there a risk that the game will become silly, slapstick, or grind to a halt with too many character deaths? If the players don't play well, yes. Do I think players who are engaged and into the game will see things fall apart or get silly? No.

The playtest showed the opposite--a zero-level TPk and I offered to start the next game at 1st. Players said no, we want to earn 1st level. They became extremely engaged and dedicated to the game very quickly (one pick-up game in fact was all it took and they started recruiting more players).

The judge needs to ground the player characters (give them some names to pick from, a village, and some people they know) and the rest flows just fine. I wouldn't want to play DCC in a vaccum (no NPCs, no village, no flavorful names) for long-term though.

4. Overall, the judge and players need to communicate clearly (one-shot versus campaign, go over trust issues), play nice together (be okay with character death but not strive for it, work together to decide how some things work), and play well (the judge and players not just the system are in control of game balance).

I like the fact that the DCC game rules become another piece of the story my players and I are telling and part of the world we're building. 4E uses rules to create balance from which story can flow which is fine. PF uses rules to give structure to fantasy module writing/stories which is also fine. DCC rules become part of the story (in the form of fate and interference by gods and demons) that is somewhat controlled by the judge and players jointly but in some ways is a whole other part of the game with a will of its own. Also fine (and in fact my preferred method).

All three games are great and do different things and do those different things well. Just depends on what you're looking for and have time to work with.
 

Why do I feel I just read:
1. "I wasn't even near the chest when the trap went off!" (Actual event during 1E play, often.)

2. Dumbed down. (Really, don't have to think so hard? I hope you meant this differently.)

3. Cheap, throw-away characters, so players don't care about long-term character story development.

I started off really interested in this system. Reading the beta document gave me pause, but did not strip away all thoughts of running this. But if you and the majority of those who have run this system agree with your assessment the way I'm reading it you will probably never see me trying this game.
Yeah, I saw a lot of (1) back in the day, and consider the battlemat the greatest invention for RPGs ever. I also saw, and had, a lot of Character #15 back in the day, and prefer to do without it these days. But, as I said earlier, at least it was taken into consideration when the rules were written.
 

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