DDI September/October Update info

[Goonalan]

Perhaps the dm ought to own the campaign setting he's running?

Or perhaps it's not necessary to make new power cards for each session.



O-kay, first off I'm not trying to be smug, but I find it hard to credit that people somehow cannot figure out how to make characters without the CB anymore. And seriously, six hours to make characters? Just how much time with the Dark Sun book do they need? Surely the group has a couple different PHs that they can share around while one guy hogs the campaign setting book for a while...?

Really, I recognize that 4e has a ton of options, but if it takes 6 hours to make a character with pen and paper, maybe the dm should have a few one-off pre-session hang-out periods with the players in order to get things ready. Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that the CB is very cool and useful- but saying that the dm can't start until DS is in the CB is just silly.

I love you Jester... but I can see his point. Me and my players have been together since Feb/March of this year. None of them have any of the books, or access to CB, if I said 'Wizards' to them they'd think of Gandalf... not WOTC.

The point being I do the work, and when I've mentioned this before at Enworld, I've had many messages from many other DMs saying exactly the same thing- the players turn up and play.

And its not that I'm lazy, I work hard for my game, but I don't understand all of Dark Sun, and how I've figured things out in the past is by making a character using the CB. I think I could sit down with my players and get them to produce PCs in 4 hours- based on how long it takes them to produce characters using CB with me helping them (even then the PCs are usually with errors). Two Handed Fighters with Longswords et al- and they've been at the game for 6 months. If its second nature to you then... if you're new to it... and at an age when computers/exams/forms/writing is not your friend then its a tough ask.

And here's another confession- I don't understand the changes made by Essentials, I mean I've read it (actually not all of it- and that's nothing to do with lazy, that's real work getting in the way) but I don't have the brain space- I ask here if its vitally important but otherwise I try to just get by.

Now you could tell me to get better players- but these are the first round-the-table real people I've had to game with here in Grimsby for 5 years. The electronic tools are the best thing that has happened to D&D (alongside 4e) IMHO, and I've been about since the first Red box.

And yes, I rely on them too much, but I rely on them because without them my game is very limited, as far as DS and the Essentials rules then I just can't do it.

And the cost of the tools and the value for money is spurious, if they were $10/month I'd pay it, $20/month same, $30/month same etc.

Providing I could rely on them to keep up to date with hard copies being produced.

Other than Enworld (and similar) websites I have no one (not even my players) to ask the questions I need answers to- in truth the questions mostly disappear when I can fiddle with the Comp/CB et al and figure things out for myself.

It's not that I hate WOTC, it's not that I'm a fanboy- I just don't get (on a regular basis) how the company that produces the game that I love can continue to disappoint me, and still I want to give them my money, my time, et al.

All the arguments have been paraded here before- they knew Essentials was coming, same DS et al, they've messed up and the new info looks like a bit of smoke and mirrors. My interpretation of course but based upon my (and nobody elses) previous experiences as regards Gandalf, I mean Wizards.

Nothing I can do of course, sigh... I'm the kind of idiot that goes to sleep at night dreaming of the 4e (TM) Gaming Table... incidentally when Wizards announced the on-line game table was coming... and here's 4e by the way, then spontaneously over a dozen of my ex-players (dispersed around the country/globe) got in touch with me within a week of the video going on Youtube.

We talked about it for an age on-line, half of them bought the 4E PHB, and after approx six months, with fewer and fewer e-mails and still no sign of the table, they all went back to their everyday lives.

The few that were left tried Maptools but...

Anyway, my final point since the start of 4e Wizards (IMHO) have had all these great ideas et al, which have made it easier for me to get a game going, ultimately. But have still managed to somehow make it harder (IMHO) to keep up with the game. Lots of time saving on-line tools that are not quite...

Last example (promise). In our game we've-

Applied some of the Essentials but not all, because... (see above).

Postponed (again, and again) Darksun

Had real problems updating the monsters for Paragon Level in-line with the changes from MM2, MM3 etc. In truth I didn't even know the changes had happened- which I'm blaming no-one for, I've got 95% of the hard back books but only read the things that I've needed to know. Not a massive problem I know but we've stopped playing our Paragon game (the WOTC H1 etc. Adventure Path) because it was just too easy- I'm trying to fix the problems but... time.

At presnt I have not played D&D for two weeks, in March when we started we played once/week, at one point over the summer we got up to three sessions in a week. The desire is still there but with work getting busy, and time issues, the players are still phoning and e-mailing-

Have you fixed the monsters for the next scenario- nope.

Have you got DS figured- nope.

When are we going to play again...

I've read back through what I've put- the only thing I'd change is now that I remember Becky (one of my players) didn't know who Gandalf was.

The thing is you can play D&D without being a... whatever the word is (geek/nerd/grognard), actually now that I think about in my previous group then only half of the players had access to the 4e PHB (maptools players scattered around the globe, all used CB). The group before that the same...

I feel better now... and relax.

Cheers Goonalan

 

[Mika]

The current Character Builder has a major flaw in it: pay once and get everything. WotC tied a permanent application to a subscription based service.

If you buy a single month subscription to DDi, you've just purchased, via the character builder, every single class, race, feat, paragon path, epic destiny, power, and magic item that has been created since 4E was released. WotC is insane to keep this model, but they may be forced into doing just that buy their customers.

Dungeon and Dragon magazines have the same flaw. While they were print based, buying a subscription to the magazine would mean you got the next X number of magazines. Buying a one month subscription to DDi means you get the entire backlog of Dungeon and Dragon magazines along with the current issue.

Now look at the compendium. Buying a single month of DDi gets you a single month of service. If you want ongoing access to it, you have to pay the monthly fee. This is a much better deal for WotC. Ongoing usage of the compendium is restricted to full subscribers.

The solution is to make the Character Builder subscription based (like WoW, you'd need to log in before you had access to it), or web-based like the compendium.

Since the first thing the Character Builder does when it starts up is check for updates, an easy way to take care of that would be to store the last time it did that, connected to the Wizards server, and got a positive response of "Yes, you are a subscriber". When the date/time stamp on that bit of data is more than a month ago, the program would refuse to complete its initialization. That would let users continue to use the Character Builder off-line while preventing them from continuing to run it indefinitely without a subscription.

A purely Web-based Character Builder that completely replaces the current Character Builder would be a major hassle, to say the least.

 

[the Jester]

First of all...

I love you Jester...

Aw shucks!

You posted a long, well-thought-out post. Rather than responding to individual bits of it, I'll just lay out my thinking.

I'm not going to criticize anyone as lazy, either player or dm; I am going to address the actual issues with starting the game (or continuing it).

First off, you don't need to understand Essentials to run Dark Sun. You don't need to update MM2 or MM3 monsters- they work just fine, especially if you use the "quick and dirty" damage fix of doubling their static bonus, or tripling it for brutes.

I understand having novice players, I understand wanting to use all the options, I understand not feeling like you have the 'whole thing down'.

What I don't understand is deciding it's better to wait for an undetermined amount of time instead of just forging ahead. One of the most important rules of thumb as a dm is, Keep the game moving. Certainly, I'd apply the same principle here. If your players make a few mistakes on their characters when making them out of the books, so what? When CB updates to include Dark Sun, correct them.

No DM- no game- is ever perfect. And yes, there is such a thing as "too bad of a game to be worth my time" to me. But it has to be pretty bad, and it sounds like your group is enthusiastic and committed and doesn't want to wait- I don't think you have that problem. Sounds like your group really enjoys your game. So I would just forge ahead.

Heck, I remember the days when the whole concept of First session, we make characters! was all the rage. Nobody called it a waste of a session, or at least very few did- heck, I didn't, and I'm not a fan of group character generation.

My point is that the CB is a bonus tool that you do not need. People played D&D just fine without it for literally DECADES. So while I understand that people get upset when the new content they want in there isn't there yet, I think it's just silly to say it MUST BE in the CB before you can use it. I mean, yeah, it makes everything easier, but that content is all in the book too. It's there, you just need to look at it.

In the context of starting your Dark Sun game, I'm going to suggest again a series of one-offs with your players where all you do is generate their starting pcs. Or loan the book to them, one by one, so that they can do it on their own.

Or wait for a better tool- sure, if that's what is honestly going to be best for your group. But personally, I'd rather just start playing. And you know what? I bet you and your players would too. I bet you'd have more fun in the end that way. And I bet it neither "ruins" anything nor causes real problems. What it all boils down to to me is that you and your group want to get your game on, and there is no reason why you shouldn't. IMHO and all that.

 

[P1NBACK]

Huh. I don't get this at all. The CB and MB are extremely popular tools. They are adding something new to the digital offerings of DDI; I don't see how that sounds like they are scrapping the CB and MB completely. Is there something in a different thread or on the WotC boards that I missed?

I don't see them scrapping the CB/MB completely. But, I also don't see the idea they are adding something new either.

We are currently in the process of developing a new web-based tools system for D&D Insider...

So, "tools system" could mean, they're transitioning the CB/MB to a web-based model or it could mean they are developing new tools to use on this system. We don't know. It could be anything.

It's certainly not evidence they are dropping the CB/MB entirely. But, it's also not evidence they are giving us something new to play with outside of a new "system" which could be a web-based GUI that requires you to log in with your subscription info to use.

 

[Almacov]

See, while I understand your reaction should it actually come to pass, I simply cannot see how you (or anybody else with this reaction) can get from "new web-based tools system" to "Oh noes, they're gonna replace the CB with online-only tools!!!!".

Just to clarify, nowhere did I draw the conclusion that "new web-based tools system" means they're going to replace the Character Builder with an online-only tool. I only indicated that if they were to take that course of action they would lose me as a subscriber.

I'm wary, but I'm not one to cry wolf.

 

[Zaran]

The ENWorld forums are a nice change of pace from the Official forums. My thanks go out to the users and the mods.



None of the answers to these are known yet. I have started poking WotC to see if I can find out what programming language (if that is even the right term) that is being used. Will it be Java, html, something else?? I don't know at all, and I know even less to hazard a guess on what they would use. I *would* be surprised if any online tools were restricted to a Win OS. At the very least, I suspect that it would be a platform that would extend to Windows and Macintosh-based operating systems.



If it is purely web-based, yes. But, I have no knowledge of what tools they are talking about.



I hope so. I will add that to the list of questions, which can currently be found here. We will fire them up the line, and do what we can to get answers. (As always, no guarantee that we will be getting answers.)

Mudbunny, a couple weeks ago you mentioned that you can't talk about something cool because of the NDA. Is this web-based tools system what you were talking about?

 

[mudbunny]

Mudbunny, a couple weeks ago you mentioned that you can't talk about something cool because of the NDA. Is this web-based tools system what you were talking about?

puts on dancing shoes

I'm not really sure how to answer that question, if only because any attempt to do so might expose a peek more of my NDA content. The only thing I can safely tell you is that, yes, I've been aware that web-based tools were coming.

 

[Goonalan]

First of all...



Aw shucks!

You posted a long, well-thought-out post. Rather than responding to individual bits of it, I'll just lay out my thinking.

I'm not going to criticize anyone as lazy, either player or dm; I am going to address the actual issues with starting the game (or continuing it).

First off, you don't need to understand Essentials to run Dark Sun. You don't need to update MM2 or MM3 monsters- they work just fine, especially if you use the "quick and dirty" damage fix of doubling their static bonus, or tripling it for brutes.

I understand having novice players, I understand wanting to use all the options, I understand not feeling like you have the 'whole thing down'.

What I don't understand is deciding it's better to wait for an undetermined amount of time instead of just forging ahead. One of the most important rules of thumb as a dm is, Keep the game moving. Certainly, I'd apply the same principle here. If your players make a few mistakes on their characters when making them out of the books, so what? When CB updates to include Dark Sun, correct them.

No DM- no game- is ever perfect. And yes, there is such a thing as "too bad of a game to be worth my time" to me. But it has to be pretty bad, and it sounds like your group is enthusiastic and committed and doesn't want to wait- I don't think you have that problem. Sounds like your group really enjoys your game. So I would just forge ahead.

Heck, I remember the days when the whole concept of First session, we make characters! was all the rage. Nobody called it a waste of a session, or at least very few did- heck, I didn't, and I'm not a fan of group character generation.

My point is that the CB is a bonus tool that you do not need. People played D&D just fine without it for literally DECADES. So while I understand that people get upset when the new content they want in there isn't there yet, I think it's just silly to say it MUST BE in the CB before you can use it. I mean, yeah, it makes everything easier, but that content is all in the book too. It's there, you just need to look at it.

In the context of starting your Dark Sun game, I'm going to suggest again a series of one-offs with your players where all you do is generate their starting pcs. Or loan the book to them, one by one, so that they can do it on their own.

Or wait for a better tool- sure, if that's what is honestly going to be best for your group. But personally, I'd rather just start playing. And you know what? I bet you and your players would too. I bet you'd have more fun in the end that way. And I bet it neither "ruins" anything nor causes real problems. What it all boils down to to me is that you and your group want to get your game on, and there is no reason why you shouldn't. IMHO and all that.

I don't know how to get my answers to sort of line up with your suggestions- I'm not that competent when it comes to computers.

I do need to understand Dark Sun (and in particular character creation) in order to explain it others, at present I don't- as well as I would like to, also If I told my players they were coming round to roll up a character I know for certain that one of them wouldn't show, and yes he's all those things you are thinking- and a great guy too.

You say the quick and easy fix with damage- tried it, (we were playing P1 and we just stopped because it was a push-over) I tried beefing up the encounters and that killed us with grind, then I tried the quick-and-easy fix with damage and the players mopped the floor with the bad guys, then I spent time and effort working through the rules as far as I could interpret them (with a little help from enworld) and it worked. So we're stopped on the Paragon path because I don't have time right now (until half-term) to do the stuff that works.

To recap we've played four ways- three don't work the one that does takes time to do it right.

The players have never made characters using the books, some of them have never made a character yet. They don't own, read, look at the books- they turn up and grab character sheets (we used to use pregens only) and play. They use CB at my place to level up, we only worked out the Tiefling's Infernal what-not had changed about a month ago. I didn't know that MM was an auto hit till approx. two weeks ago... (not having the time again). We make mistakes all the time- again that's not the problem, a bit of overload with new rules and changes (that I am left with fathoming is obviously a problem- for me).

Group Character generation- as I say, Dave will not be there and there's a possibility he'd walk if he turned up and that's what we were doing. I know, I know... but we all like (love) Dave in game- he's golden (especially if he happens to be a grumpy Dwarven Fighter- people crying with laughter etc. and he's not even role-playing just being himself).

We will forge on with the game, it's just... I'm a lecturer, I'm a fairly anally retentive so-and-so, if I don't get a thing I find a fix- if someone tells me something has changed, I have to figure it out- get it right in my head. I have to learn a thing- as I type now in my office I am surrounded by files, none of which I need to have but all of which I have to have (for me, for my job, and for my game). I have to read this book to talk about it, watch the film, I have to understand a thing to do it- particularly as I am the rule-keeper, the CB et al made this incredibly easy for me- and I know it's not the right way of doing things just with the time I have it was the only way.

And at present it feels like the CB et al is the thing that I rely on (overly), since the CB came out and the Compendium then I don't have to carry books around with me- and I rely on public transport (which is also not great). I used to tote a (fullish) 90 litre ruck sack about with me- with game mats, tiles, dice, books, paper, my files and minis etc. When CB et al appeared I ditched the rucksack- and it was instantly a better game for it. I got creative again, and those moments of- I know that rule is... frantic flicking through pages, just disappeared.

I would run the Dark Sun one-offs, that's what we were going to do anyway, I just don't feel confident enough to do so, nor have I had the time to read much of the book as of yet (work gets in the way). If the CB was upto date then I'd figure it in an evening (with the book in my hand).

We're going to try and run a session this weekend, perhaps, we're mid way through the fourth or the fifth scenario in the Scales of War AP, and I've already scaled up the monsters- and I know that I needn't have (because they're only Heroic level) but I can't not- there's a thing in my head that says- that's not right they've changed the rules- Solos are this now, Elites are... Minions do different damage, a Soldier loses its... And I can't ignore it because I'm a bit of an anally retentive so-and-so- I may have mentioned this.

I'm in this situation because I do all the leg-work (but that's been the case since Basic D&D), and I'm the guy that needs to know all the rules, and I'm me- without the updates (and the understanding) I feel a little (a lot) flumoxed by it all.

We'll survive and all that, but I'm really not enjoying myself as much as I was- I get confused, and player A says- last week you said '...', and I have to shrug and just move on... And I don't like that.

Its a culmination of things- a myriad little (and large, seemingly IMHO) changes that have left me at a loss as to what I need to concentrate my efforts on next. I know that with the updates on the CB and Compendium that I can get through all of this- in time.

I'm on my knees praying that the new Essentials Monster book will contain the definitive revisions of the monsters because even when I'm using the ones that I have put together using the new rules I'm constantly aware that they may not be right, and that bugs the hell out of me.

For the reasons stated above I've lost my mojo, I'll get through it- when I can get the time to get my head around the changes but until then... I'm a bit disappointed with myself for getting into what feels like a mess, and for Wizards beacuse foolishly I've come to rely on them.

I know... I know... but that's how I am.

Love

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Snip

I don't know what he said, but Goonalan wins by submission

 

[the Jester]

stuff and things

Fair enough, you know your table and your own style better than I do (obviously!). And I certainly understand "option overload" and not having enough time to do the prep you want to do before the game starts.

In which case, I hope that the Dark Sun update comes soon and that you guys rock it from there!