Level Up (A5E) Deadlier combat

[Asisreo]

If there was a corollary to this that said you risked being knocked out on reaching 10 h.p. or less but could be cured up normally even if unconscious, this would be good-ish to go. (or knock-out risk starts at 0 and death at -10)

The average spellcaster just abruptly dies when combat begins

 

[Giauz]

What if we are all focusing on the wrong thing? We could make combat extremely deadly in a number of ways. The problem is that would mean our PCs are dead as random orc #5 (rest their beautiful soul). Maybe instead of worrying about making combat too deadly, we need faster character creation and easier segue into a new branch of the story ala A Song of Ice and Fire series.

 

[Guest 6801328]

On the issue of the yo-yo healing, some have suggested exhaustion levels when it happens, or long-term lingering injuries, or similar mechanics.

The main issue with those mechanics are that they're long term, and generally outside the scope of the immediate fight. They're also things that you can address "later". Most of the time they have limited, if any, effect on the ongoing fight.

I think a more immediate penalty would be more useful, and it has to be easily inserted into the existing 5E mechanics. Combat is the thing that is most easily slowed down and made worse by extra mechanics.

So the simple problem is: If a character drops to 0 HP, and is healed before his next turn, within the current combat system there is almost no downside. The only loss was the action of the player who healed the downed fighter, and that's something the healer was probably going to do anyway. Some classes can even do that as a bonus action, which means it doesn't really interrupt them at all.

The main issue on the fighter side is that when the fighter drops to 0, it doesn't happen on his turn; it's some sort of enemy attack. Assuming the healer heals him at the next available opportunity, about half the time it will get him back on his feet before his next turn, and half the time he'll lose one turn waiting for the heal.

So the yo-yo effect is most prominent when the fighter is downed, and then healed, between two adjacent turns, and when the healer doesn't have to spend any effort (action time) restoring the fighter to active ability. The fighter loses no combat time, and the healer loses no significant action time.

From that perspective, you want to penalize either the fighter's combat time, or the healer's action time. Changing the healer's action time is undesirable, as there are so many different ways to heal. Changing the fighter's combat time, however, is much easier. It's also more in line with players' expectations, as seen in the suggestions for exhaustion and the like.

So, from that perspective, I'd propose an extremely simple change that doesn't add new mechanics, and doesn't slow down combat: [[ If you are cured back up from 0 HP into the positives, you are stunned for 1 round. ]] The shock of being knocked out and being brought back from the brink of death is not so easily shaken off.

That means you're guaranteed the loss of one action round (aside from any rounds you were sitting at 0 HP), and can't just continue to attack uninterrupted. It also puts you in a vulnerable state during that time (attackers have advantage, you auto-fail Str and Dex saves, you can't move or act), which should certainly be the case after being taken down. It makes a party's position shakier when trying to recover from a dangerous situation.

This would not be a change to make things deadlier directly, but it's designed to address the issue that there is no consequence for dropping to 0 HP. So it prevents the most extreme form of yo-yo'ing, hopefully reducing the amount of aggravation it causes, and dialing back the need to kill characters just to prevent it.

Not sure if that's exactly the right solution, but good thought process.

 

[tetrasodium]

What if we are all focusing on the wrong thing? We could make combat extremely deadly in a number of ways. The problem is that would mean our PCs are dead as random orc #5 (rest their beautiful soul). Maybe instead of worrying about making combat too deadly, we need faster character creation and easier segue into a new branch of the story ala A Song of Ice and Fire series.

No. We already have an example of that in the form of dcc funnels. everyone starts a tomb of horrors grade adventure or so with 4+ level zero PCs & some random items & grinds their way through doing anything they can imagine running around for dear life. Put in perspective, here is a tool that will let you generate up to fifty dcc characters in one go. It's a lot of fun & gets better with alchohol but after the funnel your supposed to use your surviving character & continue adventuring from level 1 on even if the rest of the party is still each sporting 6 hp across 4 characters. There's no concern about the lethality because anything is probably lethal.

 

[Giauz]

No. We already have an example of that in the form of dcc funnels. everyone starts a tomb of horrors grade adventure or so with 4+ level zero PCs & some random items & grinds their way through doing anything they can imagine running around for dear life. Put in perspective, here is a tool that will let you generate up to fifty dcc characters in one go. It's a lot of fun & gets better with alchohol but after the funnel your supposed to use your surviving character & continue adventuring from level 1 on even if the rest of the party is still each sporting 6 hp across 4 characters. There's no concern about the lethality because anything is probably lethal.

Oh, I didn't know about any of that. Back to the drawing board!

 

[tetrasodium]

Oh, I didn't know about any of that. Back to the drawing board!

Yea, It's not so much a matter of actually being deadly, as the fact that it could be & that hp attrition is risky enough that you wince at it. Think of it like playing an FPS game with cheat codes. DCC is the super extreme nightmare setting with no cheat codes. in 3.5 depending on your level & party makeup it was easy/medium/hard & like a 10 or 20 charge wand of cure lesser wounds the party lucked into is sparingly using for the last 3-4 levels of adventuring when it's a real emergency with every use being a bit of a wince because you didn't know if you'd get another. In 5e it's on easy & the cheat code is kinda like "being killed causes you to lose one action & return with 1hp" + "return to full hp & ammo any time you exit combat"+aimbot. In the first few you had to think when a tough fight started & needed to be on your toes because you felt the pain & worried when you flubbed it.... in that last one you have to muster the monumental effort of not falling asleep or getting distracted on another screen for too long.

 

[Giauz]

Yea, It's not so much a matter of actually being deadly, as the fact that it could be & that hp attrition is risky enough that you wince at it. Think of it like playing an FPS game with cheat codes. DCC is the super extreme nightmare setting with no cheat codes. in 3.5 depending on your level & party makeup it was easy/medium/hard & like a 10 or 20 charge wand of cure lesser wounds the party lucked into is sparingly using for the last 3-4 levels of adventuring when it's a real emergency with every use being a bit of a wince because you didn't know if you'd get another. In 5e it's on easy & the cheat code is kinda like "being killed causes you to lose one action & return with 1hp" + "return to full hp & ammo any time you exit combat"+aimbot. In the first few you had to think when a tough fight started & needed to be on your toes because you felt the pain & worried when you flubbed it.... in that last one you have to muster the monumental effort of not falling asleep or getting distracted on another screen for too long.

Raises hand My DM at the local comic book shop/Adventurers' League has gotten us to concede many fights as 9th level PC in Tomb of Annihilation. Many a time have we had to roll up new PCs, but then again he's an experienced DM and we are all relatively new to D&D. What could make my experience more universal?

 

[tetrasodium]

Raises hand My DM at the local comic book shop/Adventurers' League has gotten us to concede many fights as 9th level PC in Tomb of Annihilation. Many a time have we had to roll up new PCs, but then again he's an experienced DM and we are all relatively new to D&D. What could make my experience more universal?

Spoiler: it's this

It's great that wotc decided to use ravenloft csmpaign setting level environmental hostility like

Spoiler: this

but needing to crank the dial up to that level of environmental hostility is a symptom of the problem where so many problems surface from modifying rests that there aren't many other viable solutions that don't cause more problems than a simple "rests now work like so" can handle without a bunch of specific nonrest rules baked in as things are written.

 

[Rabulias]

Spoiler: it's this

View attachment 124949

5e removed natural armor? Not according to many monster Armor Class entries...

 

[clsawyer0328]

I’ve Thoughts shoot this long and hard; here’s what I’ve implemented at my table:


“Disabled, Dying, Death

When you fall to 0 hp, you do not fall unconscious. Instead, you are Disabled. While Disabled, your speed is halved and you can take either a Standard Action or a Quick Action on your turn. If you take your Attack Action, cast a Spell, or do any other strenuous activity (as determined by the DM), you fall Unconscious at the end of your turn and are Dying. If you take any damage while you are Disabled, you immediately fall Unconscious and are Dying.

Dying

At the start of your turn while Dying, you have to make a Death Saving Throw. You do not add any modifier to this roll, except what may be given by magic or some other source such as Bardic Inspiration. On a roll of 10 to 19, nothing happens. On a roll of 9 or below, you take a point of Exhaustion; or two if you roll a 1. On a roll of 20 or above, you are Stable and can spend a Hit Die, regaining consciousness if you do so. If you do not spend a Hit Die, you become Stable, but nothing else happens. If you take any damage while you are Dying, you suffer a Level of Exhaustion, or two if from a Critical Hit.”

This integrates Exhaustion and Hit Dice better into the game. It also creates a state where players know that they’re in danger. Now, instead of the Cleric having to save their Bonus Action for Healing Word, the other characters have a signal that lets them know that they need to play defensively. The Disabled Condition also allows the characters to take whatever actions they can to heal themselves with no issue; it only imposes penalties on offense. Even so, there is still the chance that the PC can have a heroic last stand. The Fighter can decide to hooks the bridge while everyone else flees, taking their Attack Action and Action Surge to do as much damage as possible knowing that they’ll start Dying at the end of their turn.

I also combine this with a rule that allows the players to heal themselves thru Healing Surges or Bonus Action Health Potions, so that they have some stuff they can do when separated from the healer or when there is no main healer.