Dealing with multiple conjured creatures (Was: LA/CR correlation?)

[Will]

Keep in mind that a single Dispel Magic can ruin his day. (Area dispel, if summoned creature is there has to make save or spell that brought it goes POOF) Granted, it's a 3rd level spell, but if they are EL 4, it's not unreasonable.

Plus the points other people have made.

 

[Victim]

When dealing with multiple summons, our group decided to give other players a summoned critter to run. When a rather non-rules savvy player cast Time Stop, then Gate + 2 Summon Monsters we needed to do something to keep him from being overwhelmed. With this method, eextra players get cool toys from the summoning spells.

At low levels, the very poor duration on summons ought to greatly limit their effectiveness.

 

[Saeviomagy]

They had two combats that day**... but he kept all his spells for the second combat, and yes, he did blow them all at once. I hadn't actually thought about the fact that he'd be high and dry in a subsequent combat, but you have a really good point there.

How's he getting 12 attacks anyway?

At 2nd level, he's only going to have 2 of these things in existance at one time.
I think your problem is that you don't know the rules.

 

[LazarusLong42]

At second level, with the Spell Thematics feat, each of them lasts three rounds. So you're right, it wouldn't be twelve attacks, only nine in a given round, though he did cast all four SM I's. (That's talon/talon/bite for each of them, at +8/+8/+3). Nine is still rather tedious for the other players.

 

[Saeviomagy]

At second level, with the Spell Thematics feat, each of them lasts three rounds. So you're right, it wouldn't be twelve attacks, only nine in a given round, though he did cast all four SM I's. (That's talon/talon/bite for each of them, at +8/+8/+3). Nine is still rather tedious for the other players.

What book are those things from? +5/+5/+0 sounds rather high for summon monster I. Compare with other summons...

The closest there is is the celestial badger, which gets +4/+4/-1, or if he gets enraged then as much as +6/+6/+0.

Compound that with adding the template, and too much becomes WAY too much. When could you add templates to summon creatures at will? It's certainly not one of the standard rules.

Beyond that

1st round
Summon hawk 1, take 5' step

2nd round
Hawk 1 appears, takes full attack
summon hawk 2

3rd round
Hawk 1 moves and attacks ONCE (at low level, you'd be a fool to stay next to a creature with 3 attacks)
Hawk 2 appears and takes a full attack
Summon hawk 3

4th round
Hawk 1 moves, attacks once and dissappears
Hawk 2 moves and attacks once
hawk 3 appears and takes a full attack
summon hawk 4

5th round
Hawk 2 moves, attacks once and disappears
Hawk 3 moves and attacks once
Hawk 4 appears and takes a full attack
summoner attacks once

Maximum attack rolls in a single round: 6 (in round 5)
Minimum attack rolls in a single round: 0 (in round 1)
Total attack for 4 spells: 18 attacks over 5 rounds, average of 3.6 attacks a round.

 

[LazarusLong42]

Blood Hawk is from Fiend Folio, CR 1/2, which is about right. The +5/+5/+0 is +1 BAB (magical beast), +3 Dex (Finesse), +1 Size (Small). It's no more powerful than an eagle. The air template adds +0 to CR.

SM I is one of those spells that requires a lot of adjudication--which is what this thread is part of the process of doing. Generally, any outsider of CR 1/2 or less is considered to be fair game for summoning. More strict DMs will force you to go by the book, but I'd much rather be lenient and have players have fun, especially with a summoner.

The adversary in question was an 8th-level orc cleric (weakened by disease to have a 6 Con, and half his spells were used for the day). He wasn't going to back down from the hawks; he did, however, roll poorly to hit (a 2 and a 5 on his full attack). By the time the second one appeared, he'd been surrounded by three animals and two PCs. Five AoOs is not a fun thing to take, so he wasn't moving. So, yes, nine attacks in round 4.

(As I said in the initial post, there were problems with the encounter as written, i.e. this party, if it remains as is, will never again face a single adversary. That part was my fault.)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Blood Hawk is from Fiend Folio, CR 1/2, which is about right. The +5/+5/+0 is +1 BAB (magical beast), +3 Dex (Finesse), +1 Size (Small). It's no more powerful than an eagle. The air template adds +0 to CR.

Yes, it is more powerful than an eagle, by about 2 points of attack bonus.

Furthermore the templated version adds a further 3 points to that.

At these sorts of levels, that's a hell of a lot.

SM I is one of those spells that requires a lot of adjudication--which is what this thread is part of the process of doing. Generally, any outsider of CR 1/2 or less is considered to be fair game for summoning. More strict DMs will force you to go by the book, but I'd much rather be lenient and have players have fun, especially with a summoner.

I'm not necessarily arguing that you have to stick with the lists. What I'm arguing is that when the absolute best creature on the official SM lists in terms of attack bonus falls no less that 5 points behind what you allow, perhaps you're asking for trouble?

The adversary in question was an 8th-level orc cleric (weakened by disease to have a 6 Con, and half his spells were used for the day). He wasn't going to back down from the hawks; he did, however, roll poorly to hit (a 2 and a 5 on his full attack). By the time the second one appeared, he'd been surrounded by three animals and two PCs. Five AoOs is not a fun thing to take, so he wasn't moving. So, yes, nine attacks in round 4.

 

[LazarusLong42]

I'm not necessarily arguing that you have to stick with the lists. What I'm arguing is that when the absolute best creature on the official SM lists in terms of attack bonus falls no less that 5 points behind what you allow, perhaps you're asking for trouble?

Heh. That's what half this thread was about, and you're the first person to think I'm not crazy for thinking exactly the same thing. In this case, I simply think the Air template is flawed, and should be +1 CR for HD <= 3. But everyone else so far has disagreed. Any other opinions?

 

[dreaded_beast]

Heh. That's what half this thread was about, and you're the first person to think I'm not crazy for thinking exactly the same thing. In this case, I simply think the Air template is flawed, and should be +1 CR for HD <= 3. But everyone else so far has disagreed. Any other opinions?

I'm not too familiar with the Air template, but one option is presenting this concern to your group and asking them their opinions and letting them know how you feel.

However, from a player standpoint, I believe the key is not making it seem as if you are "nerfing" their ability. Try your best to present your concerns in a reasonable manner with your reasons as to why you want to make changes or why this is a concern to you. Allow them a chance to come up with their own reasons or opinions. If your players are reasonable people, they should understand what you are getting at and you can come to a good compromise.

If all else fails, you are, in the end the DM, and what you say goes, but I find this the least desirable option.

 

[green slime]

The spell thematics feat? Are you describing the same feat from Magic of Faerûn? I fail to see...

Spell Thematics [General]
Magic of Faerûn, page 22
Your spells all share a theme (such as "rain" or "flame") which is apparent in their manifestation
Prerequisite: Must be able to cast at least one Illusion spell.
Benefit: Choose a theme for your spellcasting, such as “ice” or “fire” or “screaming skulls”. All spells you cast have this theme in the manifestation of their effects, although this does not actually change the spell in any way. You canot use this feat to make your manifestations invisible, and it never causes your spells to deal more damage because of the visual change. You may still cast spells without this thematic manifestation if you so choose.
Add +5 to the DC of any Spellcraft check to identify a spell cast in this manner.

I suspect you mean a "+1 caster level" ability on conjurations/summonings?

I really still do not see the problem. The 8th level cleric wasn't CR8; weakened by poison and lacking spells, he was a pushover.

TWO characters were involved in summoning their arsenal, and they blew their entire collection of spells.

lastly, Does the Blood hawk differ so much from the ordinary hawk?
Hawk CR 1/3; Size:T Type Animal; HD (1d8); hp 4; Init +3 (+3 Dex); Spd Walk 10', Fly 60'; AC 17 (flatfooted 14, touch 15), Claws +5 (1d4-2 20/x2 ); SA: +8 to Spot durring daylight; Vision: AL: Neutral; Sv: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2; Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills and Feats: Listen +6, Spot +6; Weapon Finesse (Claws)
Possessions: -

Air Hawk would be
+8/+8 1d4-2 damage... and with hp: 4 & AC 20
Hawks are Tiny, and as such must enter the square of their opponents, and cannot therefore attack should their target resolve to only move (as the originating square is then regarded as a non-issue).
And notice, the standard hawk does not have a beak attack...
Average damage per hit is 1,3125 (including crits), so even at six attacks per round (three birds with two attacks each), and if they all hit, you do 7,875 damage per round.
Hardly a slayer of 8th level Half-orc Clerics.

Lastly, if it is comparative to the Eagle (which is a CR½ creature) it should then be on the SM II list...and if you are allowing Druids to summon templated animals, then Eagle(template) should be on the SNA II list. Otherwise what druid in his right mind would ever summon an ordinary Eagle? (at present on the SNA I list)

Air Eagle would be
+6/+6/+1 1d4 damage AC17 hp:5
Assuming all attacks hit, it does 7,875 damage per round, equal to 70,875 damage per round (three birds attacking with three attacks per round, assuming all hit (what do I know? The cleric is cellotaped to the ground!))

So I think we can safely assume that while they have found the air template definitely is nice on beasts that use finesse, the true error here was the blood hawk, which seems to be more equivalent to the Eagle, and therefore belongs in templated form on the SM II / SNA II list.