Death or Glory (feat)

This. Remember the whole brouhahha over 3.x classes being front/backloaded?

Pathfinder has actually become FAR worse than 3E in this regard. Mostly with backloading, which isn't acceptable, either (most people only seem to care about frontloading / exploiting it), but PF also has more examples of frontloading alone than 3E probably ever did, too.

Going on a slight side-track, but a related note. People always complained about the need for system mastery in 3E and all the "trap" options. Well...PF actually has MANY, MANY more traps than 3E, in all its 8 years, ever did! And not just weak crap like a feat for +3 hp. Stuff like the feat in the OP, or *cringes* the PF Monk's Vow of Poverty, where you'd literally be better off if the game just plain took away your feat / class features for absolutely nothing in return than you are actually taking the "benefit." I swear, that seems like a completely new territory of "abysmal game design" that the folks at Paizo are exploring.
 

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Stuff like the feat in the OP, or *cringes* the PF Monk's Vow of Poverty,where you'd literally be better off if the game just plain took away your feat / class features for absolutely nothing in return than you are actually taking the "benefit." I swear, that seems like a completely new territory of "abysmal game design" that the folks at Paizo are exploring.

That's not true.

After all,

SKR said:
Roleplaying?

Not every game option has to be the best option. Not every game rule option has to be a good option. In fact, some game choices are guaranteed to be BAD in terms of rules consequences, and people do them anyway because they want to play interesting characters. You can play a wizard with a 12 Int (I've done it, in the very first 3E playtest campaign, in fact). You can play a fighter who maximizes Con instead of Str. You can put ranks in Profession. You can take Skill Focus (Appraise). You can play a child, or a blind character, or a pacifist.

There are huge numbers of players who make and play characters that they think would be a fun or interesting concept. Players who don't worry about "optimal builds" to maximize AC or damage, because the game is designed for PCs to win and they can play characters that aren't minmaxed and not have them die all the time (I'll point out that the default encounter is CR = APL, which is an easy encounter that only uses 20% of the party's disposable resources... that's stacking the deck in the favor of the PCs).

The game expects you to have X gp worth of gear at every level. Deliberately choosing to play a character that ignores that and has essentially nothing at high levels is a very suboptimal design choice. You're allowed to do that. I think it's admirable for the people who want to play that sort of character. But it is unrealistic to say "because you've given up all these goodies, you gain other goodies that exactly make up for that choice which deliberately makes you a fragile character." And if you did build such a thing into the rules, it's basically saying, "you, the character that's made a sacrifice? It's not really a sacrifice at all, you're just as good as someone who didn't make that sacrifice. In other words, your sacrifice is meaningless because you're not really giving up anything."

If you want a game where all builds are equally viable, you should play a different game. Pathfinder lets you make suboptimal choices, or even poor choices, and it doesn't reward you for making those poor choices. Because rewarding poor choices is dumb. I don't see anyone clamoring that there should be a feat or vow or ritual for Int 8 wizards to get access to different powers to make up for his lack of spells, whether or not you call it the "Vow of Rincewind." I don't see anyone clamoring that the low-Dex fighter should get something that makes him awesome at dodging out of trouble and accidentally killing his enemies in comedic ways, whether or not you call it the "Vow of Jar-Jar."

I like the concept of the vow of poverty. It's a noble thing. And I understand that it sucks to be the impoverished character in a game where you're supposed to have 20,000 gp worth of goodies. So the VOP in UM gives you a bone in the form of extra ki. And another bone in the form of "you can have one item of value," which lets you put all your gp cheese in one item instead of ten. But I'm not going to let the rules make your impoverished monk as good as a regular monk. If you want to play a character that's making a sacrifice, make a sacrifice--don't pretend it's a sacrifice and expect a handout for pretending.

So, Trailblazer anyone?
 

The short version: it's a full-round action to get a single attack at a BAB requirement that guarantees you could already be getting multiple attacks. So for the cost of a feat, you get the ability to take only one attack (and not move!) with a not-that-impressive attack and damage boost, instead of just taking a standard full attack - and then the target gets to hit you. For free.

The costs are extremely high. The benefit is very low. It is not a good feat.

I went and actually looked at the feat and it is horrible. The thing that really gets me is the monster gets the bonus to hit and damage as well. Note that death is before glory in the feat's name. I guess they wanted the feat to reflect its name.
 

So what would be a good version of the feat?

You get your normal number of attacks, +4 bonus, each hit autocrits PLUS you can apply the vital strike chain. But because you leave yourself so wide open for retaliation, the target creature gets to attack (sans bonus) you for free after you're finished (and if it's still standing)?
 

To be honest, the whole concept of the feat is pretty dumb. It's hard to think of a way to make it neither overpowered nor underpowered. Basically, you want something to target larger creatures that's some sort of "desperate attack." I would probably do something like this...

Benefit: Against a foe or foes larger than yourself, you can choose to use this feat as a free action before making any attacks. Against creatures larger than yourself, you gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls with each attack you make. After reolving each such attack you make, the target may make an attack against you (this does not count as an attack of opportunity for the target) at its highest base attack bonus.


That's the truest to the original, but I don't like it as a concept. An alternative might require you to be at below half/one quarter health and merely give you an AC penalty instead of draw attacks, but that'd probably be too good.
 

I'd say that Power attack couples one part of it (going all out to murderdeathkill) and something that lowers your AC is the other part, (like not going defensive).

There's your mechanics and RP all in one.

No need for a feat, tbh.

Much like Prone Shooter.
 

It could be useful as a wild attack, but I like that better as a combat action that everyone can do. Rather than provoking an AoO, I'd say they were flat-footed until the beginning of their next turn. That's pretty debilitating.
 

It's not debilitating enough if the benefit is +4 attack/damage on every attack. You're almost sure to kill something with that before your turn's over. If it were only one attack, maybe it's debilitating enough.
 

If it left them flatfooted, then I'd be sure to have most large creatures also be master thieves or ninjas, because that's just how I roll. Oh, and they'd all be sap-masters.

Or is it Master Saps?
 

After reading the responses I am going to be in agreement that this feat sucks...not the most appropriate language for a lady to say, but there is no other word for it so it is the one that most applies. :angel:
 

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