Death penalties - what is too steep?

[ForceUser]

From the Player's Handbook regarding revivification:

"The passage from life to death and back again is a wrenching journey for a being's soul. Consequently, any creature brought back to life usually loses one level of experience. The character's new XP total is midway between the minimum needed for his or her new level and the minimum needed for the next one."

This rule is the basis from which I take my slant on character death. When I started my campaign I had intended to play by-the-book as much as possible. Characters who died and got revived were to lose a level. New characters to replace fallen ones were to start one level lower. Due to the fact that level loss upon being raised is an extremely unpopular idea with my players, some of whom argued at great length against it, I opted for an XP deficit method instead, in which you don't lose a level but instead go in the hole XP-wise as though you had lost a level.

Death should have meaning. Characters should be aware that their actions could place them in mortal danger sometimes. They should know (or learn) when it may be prudent to run. Even the greatest heroes avoid conflict when the risk is greater than the gain. Throughout history and literature, heroic people have often died doing things that are truly heroic, but fundamentally not in the interest of self-preservation. Those are great stories. They are also finite stories.

Recently, one of my PCs died in a somewhat heroic manner. The player is now complaining that my death policy is too harsh, and he feels as though he is being punished even though he gave his life in an act of heroism. Among the circle of DMs I game with it is felt that players always have choices, and in this case the player in question put his character in the line of fire knowing full well that it would accomplish nothing and quite possibly get him killed. He did it to be dramatic, in character. He died and can't be revived.

When he made his new character I started him at the same level as the fallen one, but "in the hole" XP-wise, halfway between the previous level and his current one. This is the starting point from which he progresses now. He is unhappy with this.

Am I being unfair? Should I approach character death situationally, rewarding those who die heroically and penalizing those who die because they did something stupid? How do you handle character death?

 

[Eternalknight]

I had the same trouble with my group. PLayers would not retreat, even in the face of two adult white dragons that they were NOT meant to fight. After they wiped out the whole party....

Something needed to be done. I did exactly what you have done, start them a level lower. However, I now have the problem that the party is extremely unbalanced... I have an 11th level character, a 9th, two 8th, a 6th. Causing no end of problems for me as I try to work out how to fix it.

Death needs to have meaning. But the right way of doing it has eluded me so far.

 

[Frostmarrow]

If you like that sort of heroism you should encourage it. Put it to the vote: If most of the tabe thinks he should get an XP-bonus equal to his XP-debt for his heroic deed then think long and hard on their decision. If it makes you feel good go with the referendum. That way you can keep the rule yet make an exception in this case.

 

[hong]

Due to the fact that level loss upon being raised is an extremely unpopular idea with my players, some of whom argued at great length against it, I opted for an XP deficit method instead, in which you don't lose a level but instead go in the hole XP-wise as though you had lost a level.

Consider allowing true resurrection to be available, but at an upped price.

Death should have meaning. Characters should be aware that their actions could place them in mortal danger sometimes. They should know (or learn) when it may be prudent to run. Even the greatest heroes avoid conflict when the risk is greater than the gain. Throughout history and literature, heroic people have often died doing things that are truly heroic, but fundamentally not in the interest of self-preservation. Those are great stories. They are also finite stories.

This is easy for you to say. It's not your PC.

Am I being unfair? Should I approach character death situationally, rewarding those who die heroically and penalizing those who die because they did something stupid?

Dead is dead. You shouldn't try to judge when someone died "heroically" or when they died "stupidly", because sooner or later you'll get into fights with your players. There are plenty of ways to interpret deaths; even taking the example you gave, what seems "heroic" (getting killed on principle, when nothing would be achieved) would also seem pretty darn stupid to many people.

It's not an issue worth derailing a campaign over, especially since at high levels, PC deaths are almost bound to happen. If you play by the book, high-level D&D is EXTREMELY deadly. One botched save, or one round too many of taking full attacks from a 40-foot-tall monster, and it's curtains.

How do you handle character death?

What I do for Britannia 3E:

Raise dead and true resurrection are not available, the only revivification spell being resurrection. Instead, a creature to be resurrected makes a level check (d20 + level/HD), against DC 10. Each previous time it has been resurrected increases the DC by 5, so the second attempt is at DC 15, the third at DC 20, etc. The presence of an expert healer (typically an NPC) confers a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll. If the creature to be resurrected has no levels in a PC class, the DC increases by 20. There are no level or Constitution penalties for being resurrected, but a creature that fails its level check is forever dead.

So if you don't die too often, you're guaranteed of coming back to life at least the first time. Screw up too often, however, and things start getting risky.

 

[Mouseferatu]

First off, I hate the idea of level loss coming with resurrection. Always have, always will. And I'm the DM 19 times out of 20.

Why am I punishing a player because he had a bad run of luck with the dice, or because he chose to attempt to play out a heroic action? Why are they suddenly stuck weaker than the rest of the party?

Yes, death should be something to be feared, but it should not ruin the game for someone--and yes, being a level behind everyone else is enough to ruin the game for a lot of people.

So there's no penalty for resurrection in my campaigns. No XP loss, no Con loss, nothing.

But...

It also doesn't always work. When a character is first raised from the dead, there's a very slight percentage chance it won't work (the exact percentage is determined by the specific spell). If it happens a second time, the chance it'll fail goes up. Ditto the third, the fourth, etc. Once a resurrection has failed, the character is permanently dead. No magic short of direct divine intervention will bring him back.

I also very often require a quest to bring back a departed character. Resurrection magic grants access to the departed's soul, but it doesn't automatically free it. The caster must bargain with the god of the dead (or whatever other entity is appropriate) for the soul to be released.

 

[hong]

It also doesn't always work. When a character is first raised from the dead, there's a very slight percentage chance it won't work (the exact percentage is determined by the specific spell). If it happens a second time, the chance it'll fail goes up. Ditto the third, the fourth, etc. Once a resurrection has failed, the character is permanently dead. No magic short of direct divine intervention will bring him back.

Great minds think alike.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Great minds think alike.

And apparently, so do ours.

 

[hong]

Something needed to be done. I did exactly what you have done, start them a level lower. However, I now have the problem that the party is extremely unbalanced... I have an 11th level character, a 9th, two 8th, a 6th. Causing no end of problems for me as I try to work out how to fix it.

Suggestion: FRCS method of awarding XP.

 

[ForceUser]

What if you can't revive the PC? Presto-chango, the replacement PC just picks up exactly where the old one left off, meaning that there are no real consequences for death at all? Does that by extension mean a player could change characters like he changes socks?

 

[hong]

What if you can't revive the PC? Presto-chango, the replacement PC just picks up exactly where the old one left off, meaning that there are no real consequences for death at all? Does that by extension mean a player could change characters like he changes socks?

In my game, new PCs come in at one level below the lowest existing level, whether it's a brand new player or a current player replacing a dead character. Although I relaxed that a bit for the most recent addition; the lowest-level PC was 5th and just a few hundred XP off making 6th, so I let the new guy make up his character at the starting point for 5th. Otherwise the session would have ended with him being two levels below everyone else.