Death penalties - what is too steep?

[Sammael99]

Re: Re: Death penalties - what is too steep?

What I do for Britannia 3E:

Raise dead and true resurrection are not available, the only revivification spell being resurrection. Instead, a creature to be resurrected makes a level check (d20 + level/HD), against DC 10. Each previous time it has been resurrected increases the DC by 5, so the second attempt is at DC 15, the third at DC 20, etc. The presence of an expert healer (typically an NPC) confers a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll. If the creature to be resurrected has no levels in a PC class, the DC increases by 20. There are no level or Constitution penalties for being resurrected, but a creature that fails its level check is forever dead.

So if you don't die too often, you're guaranteed of coming back to life at least the first time. Screw up too often, however, and things start getting risky.

Hong, that is a great system. Simple and to the point, and it delivers the goods. Mind if I swipe it ?

 

[Inez Hull]

Death needs to have meaning. But the right way of doing it has eluded me so far.

Here's a thought, death causes....... wait for it........ death

You could always try playing a no-raise game. We've only played one D&D campaign which had ressurection as an option and this was back in the days of OD&D. All the players hated it when we died and came back. We lost all attachment to our characters and nixed the game. And that was under a system with no penalties.

I know this won't be for everyone and it necessitates changes to how you play the game, especially with regard to save-or-die. However, it works for us. Combat always has risk, even when fighting against underwhelming odds. Running away and risk assessment become the name of the game rather than "Cleric!".

 

[ForceUser]

In my game, new PCs come in at one level below the lowest existing level, whether it's a brand new player or a current player replacing a dead character. Although I relaxed that a bit for the most recent addition; the lowest-level PC was 5th and just a few hundred XP off making 6th, so I let the new guy make up his character at the starting point for 5th. Otherwise the session would have ended with him being two levels below everyone else.

Were I using your system, my player's new character would be 2nd level instead of 3rd level and in the hole, so in a roundabout way your answer to my core question is yes, death should have consequences. You could have just said that instead of inferring that my logic was flawed

This is easy for you to say. It's not your PC.

 

[LGodamus]

When PC's die in my game there are no penalties in xp levels con or anything like that, but there are some restrictions.....I too have them pass a level check to return and once it fails death is permanent....furthermore your cha modifier (if positive,otherwise zero) +1 is the absolute limit to the amount of times the grave will release you. I find this make death scary but not restrictive if the dice were just crazy one night, and has the wonderfull effect of not making cha a total dump stat for non sorcerers....it makes sense to because cha represents your force of personality and strength of character in 3e so hey it fits.

 

[hong]

Were I using your system, my player's new character would be 2nd level instead of 3rd level and in the hole, so in a roundabout way your answer to my core question is yes, death should have consequences.

Note that said character would also have had a 14 in 20 chance of returning without losing a level; possibly 16 in 20 if an "expert healer" was around.

You could have just said that instead of inferring that my logic was flawed

I never said anything about your logic, just your ordering of priorities.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Death penalties - what is too steep?

Hong, that is a great system. Simple and to the point, and it delivers the goods. Mind if I swipe it ?

Go right ahead. Although the one time it's been put to the test, the player rolled a 1 when he only needed a 3....

 

[Fenes 2]

I am going, as usual when death is concerned, against the majority. IMHO, death should not have a penalty. In fact, I don't kill off PCs without a clear warning and a chance to alter the chosen course of action ("Do that and die. Want to reconsider, or roll it out and hope for that lucky string of 20ies?").

I do not play with people that need the threat of PC death to roleplay a character fearing death, and I won't play with such people, so there is, in my game, no need for random PC death - each death is a decision by the player, not a result of a roll.

If you are playing a more tactically-oriented game, where the players (not the PCs) are put against the MD's monsters and are expected to display ingenuity, smarts and cohesive tactics moving their miniature over the battlegrid, then you may very well need PC death to mean something to prevent suicide actions or just plain stupid stunts. I don't play that sort of game.

For me (and my players) PC death is no fun, and we play to have fun.

 

[Sammael99]

I am going, as usual when death is concerned, against the majority. IMHO, death should not have a penalty. In fact, I don't kill off PCs without a clear warning and a chance to alter the chosen course of action ("Do that and die. Want to reconsider, or roll it out and hope for that lucky string of 20ies?").

I do not play with people that need the threat of PC death to roleplay a character fearing death, and I won't play with such people, so there is, in my game, no need for random PC death - each death is a decision by the player, not a result of a roll.

If you are playing a more tactically-oriented game, where the players (not the PCs) are put against the MD's monsters and are expected to display ingenuity, smarts and cohesive tactics moving their miniature over the battlegrid, then you may very well need PC death to mean something to prevent suicide actions or just plain stupid stunts. I don't play that sort of game.

For me (and my players) PC death is no fun, and we play to have fun.

Well thanks for comparing DMs who do things differently to Warhammer Battle players...

For what it's worth, my game is nothing like the tactically oriented game you describe above. That does not make character death impossible, even due to bad luck. I like my players to be on the edge also, not just their characters. I also find that pulling no punches as a DM makes my NPCs a lot more realistic and the few rare combat encounters a lot more interesting and memorable.

Now I think the way you do it is great if that's what you and your players want to do, but you're definitely implying that the way you do it is better... The possibility of character death does not imply a more or less mature game...

Also, you might want to go read ForceUser's Vietnamese Adventures Story Hour to have a feel for what his game is like.

 

[Bagpuss]

I my campaign the current restrictions are as follows.

Raise Dead - Can only be cast in a temple of the same faith as the caster. Target cannot not be of a directly opposed alignment to the god in question. (Neutral deitys count LG, CG, LE and CE as opposites), and must at least pay lip service to deity.

Resurection - as above but must also be a holy day, and targets alignment can only be one step different than deities.

True Resurection - as above but Target must have been a worshipper of deity and of the same alignment.

You still the have the penalties as listed in the PHB.

New characters start at the same level as the lowest level member in the party (so this does not always mean a level loss).

 

[Numion]

In my campaign there are two PCs who can cast True Resurrection. So there's really no penalty to dying. Did this have any negative effect on the game?

No, not really.

Players are still very pissed off if their characters die. They do their best to keep them alive. Everyone agrees that it's good that there's no level or XP penalty in dying.

I also think that it's also somewhat of a balancing factor. Some types of characters tend to die more than others (clerics vs. fighters, for example), so it would be unfair for more fragile characters if they were punished for dying.