Dedicated Mechanics

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The closest thing I think you'll get to a generalized PbtA is that series of design articles Vincent Baker wrote. One you start picking moves and designing playbooks you've already zeroed in specific types of conflict and made choices that mostly serve to de-generalize the game. I mean you could probably make something bland, but that's not quite the same as generic.
 

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"Need" to make mechanics? No - you don't need any rules at all to roleplay. "Want" - ah, that's another matter.

Heist stories often involve a lot of planning. As every single person who ever played Shadowrun can tell you, it involves several hours of real time planning that goes out the window when a twist or something unknown/unexpected comes up. So a game focusing on heists allowing flashbacks means that the players can jump right into the action, and have planning and preparation done when needed, and only for the things they are needed for. It a much more active game, and a more satisfying one. In D&D, you don't "need" those rules as the right DM could do it by fiat. But that doesn't mean that foir the sake of that game's community as a whole that you don't want those rules. This way you have some consistent, including between groups, guidance for the GM to make it easier for them (remember a community will have newbie DMs up through vets and should cover all their needs), and the players have an idea of what's appropriate and if there are any metacurrency costs to keep it to a reasonable amount.

Across all groups playing that heist game, it makes for a better net experience summed from the diverse tables.
With the mechanics that you have in games like Shadowrun, how possible is it to fail the heist, yet continue the story?
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
With the mechanics that you have in games like Shadowrun, how possible is it to fail the heist, yet continue the story?
Not really sure what you are asking, since I held up Shadowrun as an example of a game where there was a lot of wasted time planning fruitlessly that led to the session as a whole being less fun then an action-packed session where flashbacks for prep could be done as/if needed.

Or are you saying Shadowrun is easy mode and there's no chance of death or losing? Taht wasn't my expereience at all when I played, but I haven't played the last few editions so it could have changed.
 

I don't know. It's possible. It may not be as good as a dedicated one, but I imagine that it's possible in one shape or another. One could, for example, use a more generic playbook that used Fate-like player-created Aspects or Cortex-like Distinctions. Maybe some guidelines on how to create custom moves for a character. 🤔

Or alternatively, making a character in Ironsworn involves a sort of grab bag of initial assets (e.g., abilities, tools, allies, and such) that the player can pick for constructing their character. That would also provide a potential model for a more generic PbtA game. 🤔
Yeah, I suppose so. A lot of what makes a given PbtA unique, IME, is the agenda. If you look at Dungeon World, the agenda, the playbooks, and the standard moves of that specific game, along with DW-specific things like dooms and fronts, all mesh. So I'd expect successful PbtAs generally need to be pretty specific in those sorts of areas. You are addressing, mostly, the playbook aspect. I agree, you could change the model somewhat there such that players could have more flexibility in terms of what their PCs shtick is. That would probably open up play space a bit, maybe? Still, DW is about heroic PCs in a world of fantastic adventure, and things like the damage rules and such are fixing a lot of its genre and tone. I certainly don't think you could create a PbtA which worked in several genres.
 

Not really sure what you are asking, since I held up Shadowrun as an example of a game where there was a lot of wasted time planning fruitlessly that led to the session as a whole being less fun then an action-packed session where flashbacks for prep could be done as/if needed.

Or are you saying Shadowrun is easy mode and there's no chance of death or losing? Taht wasn't my expereience at all when I played, but I haven't played the last few editions so it could have changed.
Things go wrong, heists get scuttered, if they were easy then everyone would join in. Shadowrun's mechanics as the example seem to require some streamlining to reduce play fatigue from game prep, I wouldn't dispute that, but it seemed like you're seeking mechanics that can guarantee the favourable outcome of any heist for the players pulling it off. "Just in time" flashbacks suggests that.

If you just want a fast way to enjoy some escapism, a board game would be much simpler to design with way less overhead, as that would focus strictly on the heist and no other elements. If you desperately need more features, like political intrigues, make some expansions.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Things go wrong, heists get scuttered, if they were easy then everyone would join in. Shadowrun's mechanics as the example seem to require some streamlining to reduce play fatigue from game prep, I wouldn't dispute that, but it seemed like you're seeking mechanics that can guarantee the favourable outcome of any heist for the players pulling it off. "Just in time" flashbacks suggests that.
Not sure where you are getting the idea, didn't put forth about guaranteeing favorable outcomes. What I was talking about was having mechanics that let you focus on the more interesting parts of play more during your session time. Success or failure are still on the table.

I happen to think occasional failure is often the most interesting story fork and part of the natural order of up and down beats you see in novels, movies, and other forms of storytelling. And without risk of failure, there's no real meaning to succcess.

Sorry for the miscommunication.
 

Not sure where you are getting the idea, didn't put forth about guaranteeing favorable outcomes. What I was talking about was having mechanics that let you focus on the more interesting parts of play more during your session time. Success or failure are still on the table.

I happen to think occasional failure is often the most interesting story fork and part of the natural order of up and down beats you see in novels, movies, and other forms of storytelling. And without risk of failure, there's no real meaning to succcess.

Sorry for the miscommunication.
I had you figured for a different view point as well, we dodged a bullet there.
 

Things go wrong, heists get scuttered, if they were easy then everyone would join in. Shadowrun's mechanics as the example seem to require some streamlining to reduce play fatigue from game prep, I wouldn't dispute that, but it seemed like you're seeking mechanics that can guarantee the favourable outcome of any heist for the players pulling it off. "Just in time" flashbacks suggests that.

If you just want a fast way to enjoy some escapism, a board game would be much simpler to design with way less overhead, as that would focus strictly on the heist and no other elements. If you desperately need more features, like political intrigues, make some expansions.
I think you should play some BitD! Scores go wrong all the time. I mean, if you play well, you will probably succeed on a hefty majority of them, like you would on most D&D fights. However, in BitD when you attempt to act, you get a 'position', either Controlled, Risky, or Desperate based on the fictional situation and which action rating (skill) the player chose to invoke (they will have had to describe appropriate fiction, but in BitD the choice is theirs). If its wildly inappropriate, its probably desperate even if the situation isn't THAT crazy, etc. Now you roll your dice. Should the results come up 4 or 5, you succeed but something happens. How bad that is depends on the position, so you could suffer some harm, a complication, or reduced effect. On a 1-3 the consequences are more harsh, but similar.

Harm is pretty nasty in Blades, you don't have 'hit points', severe harm is 'level 3', you cannot function on your own without help for the rest of the score! normal harm is level 2, you can get this twice and it cuts your dice pool by -1d per instance (usually not on ALL checks, the GM will describe the type of harm). If you have 2 level 2s and you get another one, it bubbles to level 3! Level 1 reduces your effect when you get success (4-6). Again, probably not in ALL situations, and you can get this twice also, the 3rd time bubbles up to level 2. Should you have the misfortune to get level 3 harm in a situation where you either already have it, or the degree of harm is increased (something REALLY nasty hit you), then you get level 4 harm, DEAD.

You also have a stress track. You can 'resist' bad consequences (like harm) which gives you a fortune roll (usually 3 or 4 dice, maybe 5 sometimes). 6 - whatever you rolled is how much stress you take for resisting the consequence down one level. You only have 9 stress starting out, so this can be rather risky! Once your stress hits 9 you are 'stressed out' of the score, and you suffer trauma (some kind of permanent effect). 4 traumas EVER removes you from play (you can get a 5th trauma box as a special ability). There is no way to remove trauma.

Stress is also required to 'do stuff', like a flashback may cost 1 or even 2 stress if you are stretching things a bit to call for it. You can spend 2 stress to 'push' your character (add 1d to a dice pool) as well. There may be other ways to use stress as well, depending on your abilities.

The upshot is, its not AT ALL true that you 'always succeed', and my character has failed a couple of scores and been stressed out a couple times. In fact I failed a score a couple sessions ago where I was NOT stressed out, but I had so few options left, both mechanically and fictionally, that it was just clearly impossible to succeed. I ended up 'closing out' the situation in a way that wasn't ENTIRELY unsatisfactory, but which was not fictionally how my character wanted it to go (he killed a guy whom he was once friends with). So it goes in Doskvol!
 

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