Defense Bonus, Armor as DR, & the Number Crunching (what, if anything, am I missing?)

[Remathilis]

Before we begin: the relevant rules.

Defense Bonus: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm
Armor as DR: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm

I have a couple of issues with these two rules-as-written. The big one comes with Defense Bonus. Now, I want the ability to improve AC without relying on a lot of gold/magic boosts, so Def. seems like a good idea, but my problem is this line.

For a multiclass character, use the highest defense bonus of those offered by the character’s classes. For example, a 2nd-level barbarian has a defense bonus of +4. If the character gains a level of cleric (becoming a 2nd-level barbarian/1st-level cleric), her defense bonus increases to +7, because the cleric’s +7 at 3rd character level is better than the barbarian’s +5 at 3rd character level.

This basically opens the door for everyone to take one level of fighter (or paladin or cleric) and shoot their AC through the roof! There is no reason NOT to! A ftr1/wiz19 would have the same AC as a ftr20 (and 4 higher than a wiz20)

So I busted out the rule from Star War's d20. You use the chart you gained the level in, and have a -2 penalty for each class beyond the first you have (so a fighter/wizard has the AC of a fighter + the bonus of a wizard19, and a -2 multi-classing penalty). However, using that formula, ever M/C combo got EQUAL TO OR BETTER than if they had stayed on their best track (for example, a ftr1/rogue19 got a +13 AC, one better than a ftr20).

I checked the charts FROM SWd20, btw. They range from +2-+10 (weakest) to +3-+12 (best), but I've not number-crunched to see if the -2 rule works with them. I've heard they're rather slow and don't scale fast enough to keep up with Bab...

Now, I wanted to be able to Stack the 1/2 AC from armor onto the defense (as well as grant the DR). So a first level fighter in full plate has AC 20 (10 + 6 class +4 full plate) and DR 4/-. However, I'm afraid that might scale too fast and make some foe's unhittable (or worse, get PCs with ACs in the 30s by 10th level).

So here are my concerns.

* How should I handle Defense to AC so that it doesn't make everyone a ftr1/whatever X?
* Should I use the UA rules of the SWd20 rules?
* Should I allow armor AC to stack with defense bonus as well as give DR?
* What should I do to make sure ACs don't become too unmanageable but still give the PCs a choice between having armor or not?

I'm looking for any or all ideas.

 

[blargney the second]

What effect are you hoping to accomplish?

 

[Remathilis]

I'm trying to get AC to scale up in levels without relying on rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, or +5 full plate. I want armor to be viable, but not necessary. And I still want mages to have a lower overall AC than fighters.

 

[mmadsen]

I'm trying to get AC to scale up in levels without relying on rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, or +5 full plate. I want armor to be viable, but not necessary. And I still want mages to have a lower overall AC than fighters.

Just base AC off of Ref.

 

[Celebrim]

Scale the defence bonus to the character's BAB.

Depending on how much impact you want the DB to have, between BAB/5 + 2 and BAB/2 + 2 (rounding fractions down), or between BAB/5 + <bonus for armor proficiencies> and BAB/2 + <bonus for armor proficiencies>.

Armor bonus should stack with DB but not with its full AC. Instead, give a +1 bonus to AC for light, +2 for medium, and +3 for heavy. Magic armor, if it is allowed to exist at all, should have its cost scaled up immensely, say to 5000 x <enhancement bonus> ^ 2.

DR from armor should not be a flat number, but instead a dice roll (as in Iron Heroes). So DR 4/- becomes DR 1d4/-, DR 6 becomes DR 1d6/-.

 

[Mark CMG]

Should I allow armor AC to stack with defense bonus as well as give DR?

(. . .)

I'm looking for any or all ideas.

When in combat, ask the defender if they are trying to avoid the attack or absorbing the attack (when flatfooted, only the latter is allowed). If they are avoiding, they use the Def Bonus but do not gt the DR as they are assumed to be trying to mae the opponent miss and if hit, the attack gets past any armor. If they are a absorbing the blow, the AC applies but so, too, the DR. Work something out, too, on how often armor needs to be replaced or repaired based on the amount of damage it absorbs.

 

[VirtualWizard]

I ran a game using the Armor as Damage Reduction rule. I found that without a mechanic to increase weapon damage (other than Power Attack) that most characters had to either add energy damage to their weapons or use two-handed weapons. Otherwise, they could not significantly hurt their targets. I would suggest either making armor DR a random roll (i.e. DR 3 = 1d3) or increasing the damage done with weapons based on BAB (i.e. every three or four BAB increases the character's weapon damage die by one step).

Also, you might consider letting armor DR convert lethal damage into non-lethal damage. This removes the problem of not being able to damage a foe, but it does add some administrative overhead.

 

[Master of the Game]

Also, you might consider letting armor DR convert lethal damage into non-lethal damage. This removes the problem of not being able to damage a foe, but it does add some administrative overhead.

I whole-heartedly recommend this. I'm running a game with armor as DR, and this rule has drastically sped up my combats.

 

[Dagredhel]

As I see it, the main problem with UA Defense with respect to multiclassing is that it is too "front-loaded". (To a greater or lesser extent, depending on the class, this is a problem with multiclassing in general-- cherry-picking abilities from the first few levels of another class.)

My suggestion would be a Defense bonus of 4 at 1st level + 1/2 BAB rounded up. Full BAB classes would start at 5 and the others would start at 4. By rounding up, Fighters wouldn't improve their Defense Bonus the same level they pick up bonus feats.

At the same time, I'd apply a -4 penalty if the character isn't defending with a proficient weapon. (Improved Unarmed Strike would count as proficiency in unarmed combat for this purpose.)

Dodge would give a flat +1 bonus to Defense (vs. all attackers.)

Oh, and change the Maximum Dex Bonus of armor to Maximum Defense Bonus.

As to Armor as Damage Reduction, the only change I'd suggest would be to add some additional incentive for wearing armor. Add the "Armor bonus" (the bonus to AC) to Saving Throws against area affect attacks. It makes sense, too, if you think about it. Even leather armor would offer some protection against fire (cold, acid, etc.)

(If you use a Fort Save to remain alive below negative CON hit points or to remain conscious at 0 Hp or lower, add the Armor bonus to that, too.)

If you don't mind the bookkeeping, you could do the Damage Reduction as regular DR, and the "Armor bonus" as damage conversion to subdual/nonlethal damage. In terms of psuedo-realism, it's the best of all possible worlds-- armor deflects some attacks, absorbs other damage entirely, but can still leave the wearer battered and bruised.

 

[Maldor]

i've played in a game useing both rule in RAW didn't have any problems it made fights last a little longer but thats about it

as a DM finding a monster that can hit and or damage a PC is not a problem

i think you'll find that alot of characters will not Multiclass just fora +4 ac boost at level 20 thats basicly nothing at that level