Defense Bonus, Armor as DR, & the Number Crunching (what, if anything, am I missing?)

[Dagredhel]

i've played in a game useing both rule in RAW didn't have any problems it made fights last a little longer but thats about it

as a DM finding a monster that can hit and or damage a PC is not a problem

i think you'll find that alot of characters will not Multiclass just fora +4 ac boost at level 20 thats basicly nothing at that level

I concede all of these points, and accept that the rules work just fine mechanically as written.

On the other hand, the motivation to use some variant of Defense and Armor as DR is probably to downplay the reliance on magical items to boost AC, tie defensive ability to combat prowess in the interest of "realism", and make unarmored or lightly armored character concepts (swashbuckler types, martial artists, etc.) more viable.

At the same time, you don't want to undercut the mechanical value of wearing armor.

The suggestions I made were in keeping with my own idea of how best to accomplish these goals, in a way that is more in keeping with my own sensibilities.

You'd only want to "tweak" these rules if something about them doesn't "feel" right to you.

It's clear that for Remathilis, one of the things that didn't jive for him was the effect of multiclassing. Another concern was the best way to combine the defense bonuses with armor bonuses. (UA gives two options, but sort of leaves it up in the air.)

Because the UA bonuses are aligned with armor proficiencies as a balance consideration, they end up being somewhat counterintuitive for a lot of us, I think.

The issue I have with this is that the classes still get those armor proficiencies, so I figure that if armor is still worthwhile to wear, then you wouldn't need to compensate so heavily.

The solution I'd prefer would be to make sure that wearing armor has enough appeal in terms of mechanical advantages to balance it against the defense bonus.

Moving away from armor proficiencies as a primary consideration, I'm for linking the bonus to combat prowess as reflected by BAB.

I understand that a lot of folks naturally feel that defense should equate to Reflex (as mmadsen suggests), and classes with good Reflex saves (Rogue, Monk, etc.) should have the best defense bonuses.

But these types of characters will probably have good Dexterity scores anyways, and Monks will still have an extra bonus from Wisdom and their class feature.

Tying it to Reflex also stiffs the Fighter, and I'm one of those folks who thinks that an unarmored or lightly armored Fighter should be viable. It "makes sense" to me that a Fighter should have the best ability to defend himself. And high Dexterity and class abilities (Monk, Scout, etc.) would bring several other classes up to that same level when unarmored or lightly armored.

 

[Remathilis]

On the other hand, the motivation to use some variant of Defense and Armor as DR is probably to downplay the reliance on magical items to boost AC, tie defensive ability to combat prowess in the interest of "realism", and make unarmored or lightly armored character concepts (swashbuckler types, martial artists, etc.) more viable.

At the same time, you don't want to undercut the mechanical value of wearing armor.

The suggestions I made were in keeping with my own idea of how best to accomplish these goals, in a way that is more in keeping with my own sensibilities.

You'd only want to "tweak" these rules if something about them doesn't "feel" right to you.

It's clear that for Remathilis, one of the things that didn't jive for him was the effect of multiclassing. Another concern was the best way to combine the defense bonuses with armor bonuses. (UA gives two options, but sort of leaves it up in the air.)

You hit the nail on the head. I want to go for a feel that a lightly armored agile warrior can go toe-to-toe with a foe and use his skill to avoid blows, but it is just as viable for a heavily armored knight to take the penalties to speed, armor check, and max dex in order to gain some protection from armor.

My problem came down to this example: Your a first level wizard. You have a Defense of +2 before dex and such. You get hit a lot. So at second level, you grab a level of fighter. BOOM. You now (and forevermore) have the same defense as a fighter (+6 at 2nd level). You never have to take another level of fighter to reap all the AC benefit from it.

I think I will instead make the AC chart based on the class you have the Highest Level In. So a Fighter3/Wizard1 uses the fighter bonus, a wizard3/fighter one uses the wizard bonus, and a wizard2/fighter2 choses which chart he wants to use (obviously, the fighter). I will grant the benefit of the better if the classes are within one of each other (so a fighter/ mage doesn't have to keep switching charts) but it will discourage ftr1/Another classX combos solely for the Def.

As for the stacking of Armor AC to Defense, I'm still on the fence. Without it, magical armor is useless (and I do want PCs to have the option to have enchanted armor, but not feel I need to rely on it) but I'm afraid of High AC monsters if I allow the two together.

I'm actually tempted to tie it it HD rather than Armor Prof. d10/d12 get the best, d8 next best, d6 third, d4 worst. This works with the idea of how sturdy they should be in combat and ends up tying to to BAB (indirectly) as well.

As for the DR, I think turning it to nonlethal is a viable option. My fear is the fact that wearing armor means you can never "kill" a foe outright since they will drop at the nonlethal number and most will have to be tied up, coup de graced, or otherwise neutralized outside of combat. The variable DR is a interesting idea, but it adds another roll to the length of combat.

More things to ponder...

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Having tinkered extensively with the combat system of d20 here's my observations.

*Adding many more stats for AC slows down combat rapidly. The number of overall statistics use is just about right, so tweaks should be aimed at changing the way those AC stats are figured to get a more optimum result.
*Tracking the damage conversion gets tedious quickly. So better to aim for straight DR to reduce complications.
*If reducing the need for magical AC boosters is a goal it could be done with the combat system or the character class progression you should choose one or the other to effect this and concentrate on other aspects for the other system.
*Multi-classing can botch up a defense bonus system when it's tied to individual classes.
*Tying the defense bonus to certain effects would hamstring the fighter who is after all supposed to be THE armed combatant.

1.) You should try to keep most of the existing AC figures and similar ways of generating them to keep action smooth and fast-paced.
1a.) AC-this should stay relatively the same in use and change only a little in calculation. So I'd recommend this AC=10 + defense bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier. Don't apply natural or manufactured armor, or enhancement bonus to AC. Apply the defense bonus even to flat-footed and touch attacks, boost the shield bonus modeled on the AGoT d20 ruleset. Buckler +3 small shield +5 large shield +7 tower shield +9.
1b.) DR-this should increase and keep increasing to keep pace with monster attacks as levels increase so that while it won't entirely negate attacks it still takes a considerable brunt off them if you focus on armor. My recommendation is a modification of the UA rule. Armor DR=(1/2std AC)+(1/2 hardness) & Natural Armor DR=(1/2 std AC) only add half hardness if their natural armor has a listed hardness(such as golems). Furthermore you have the problem of DRs of multiple types and natures which should partially stack but be bypassed by particular attacks. So group DR into types. Magic/Manufactured/Innate Supernatural/Natural in that order. Group all DR bonuses as a result of spells(converted mage armor, etc, not really many of these.) into a single group and add them up if they stack if not use the highest. Then the DR from Manufactured armor you're wearing. Then any innate supernatural DR(aligned or material DR that's a feature of the race), and natural DR last of all(note in converting spells barkskin,stoneskin,ironskin would be considered to affect natural DR). Physical attacks have to penetrate them in series unless a specific attack bypasses them. Note that by the time all these types of DR are in play both characters and monsters will have attacks that bypass one or more of them reducing it to sane levels and at lower levels they all don't come into play at once.
2.) defense bonus-it's just plain easier and more sensible to use BAB for this, if necessary in combination with the fractional saves and BAB table in the UA to keep multiclassing sane. By using BAB as Defense Bonus you put attacker and defender at closer to an even keel and with my modification to AC(even if the DR part is ignored) the result will be that combatants of equal level, class, and stats hit each other about half the time before equipment is taken into account.
3.) Dodge-hasn't everybody HR'd this feat to a straight +1 already?
4.) DR and Damge Conversion-this avoids the damage conversion tracking problems and replaces it with a slightly more tricky DR column that can have up to 4 columns. But as long as you keep the categories in order and write out which ones an attack bypasses it's actually very fast to just roll down the column and take off what isn't bypassed.
5.) Every +5BAB the base damage of weapons a character uses should go up one step to account for the increase in DR.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Honestly, I think the cherrypicking is a much bigger perceived problem than an actual problem in game play. Although, with ever set of players the scope does change, so its best to know your players when reading online advice, of course!

However, I as a DM am always confidence that I can create an encounter within the proper CR scope that will challenge any on of the party members. For example, the Fighter 1/Wizard X is down one spell level, one caster level, one level of WILL Save, up one level of FORT save, and up big time on AC. Personally, for as often as a mage's AC from armor gets used, I consider that a loss for the player.

To challenge this character, have some of the opponents use touch type attacks that bypass AC from armors (and I believe thus bypass the class defense bonus - or houserule it that it works this way if it actually doesn't). It doesn't matter what your AC is when someone just needs to succeed on a touch attack.

Area effect spells - especially those with a reflex safe - are likely to succeed as well. Use them, and use them intelligently. A Fighter 1/Mage X shouldn't have many more HP than a Mage X+1 ... so area effect spells for damage and a REFL save should still hurt them. Depending on the level of the party, even a small number of 5th level casters with fireball can make that guy sorry.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't think cherry picking is all that big of a deal. I let my players do it if they want. Ask yourself how much a mage's AC actually comes into play during a normal combat. If you are like me, it doesn't come up all that much. Saves and touch AC come up much more often - in my experience, of course. That's why I don't worry about cherry pickers. In my opinion, the cherry picker is trading alot for a stat that shouldn't be terribly significant for a mage anyway. YMMV.