Defense Bonus Based on Base Attack Bonus?

[Planesdragon]

At the risk of derailing the thread...

Full Defense... Fighting Defensively... The Tumble skill ...

None of those reflect the basic arugment of this threat--that better attack skill should also reflect better attack defense. (Also, Full Defense seems to have vanished from 3.5...)

Then there is Combat Expertise (-1 to -5 to attacks to gain +1 to +5 AC). Combat Expertise cannot be combined with Full Defense.

Ok, so if you're 5th level or lower, you can translate BAB to defense--and that's supposed to do it?

the most skilled fighter in the world, with the best defensive-skill they can get, can just-barely beat a 1st level wizard's shield spell. And he can't ever do better than a 7th level fighter.


The current system doesn't reflect skill-as-defense in any effective measure. which is why I let my PC's use a block action, or "abort to defense" (skip their next turn to gain +1d20 against one attack).

 

[Fieari]

What you are describing here is basically what the Grim 'n Gritty system does... maybe you should look into it? It'd be easy enough for you to take his attack/defend system and ditch his hit point system if you don't like the latter. You might also like to try his critical system.

My group uses GnG more or less as he wrote it (except we use 20=30, 1=-10 instead of autohit/automiss) and while we've found that it completely wrecks the CR system, if you use the right monsters, the system is perfectly balanced and very playable with no loss to heroism or cinematics.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82837

 

[Ace]

One idea I played with IMC was to give everyone virtual Combat Expertise and Greater Combat Expertise -- basically anyone could move BAB to AC at will.

This would give a sense of AC improving with level without requiring any class modifications

 

[ElectricDragon]

Full Defense is a full-round action (i.e., not an attack action) and it never increases as you go up in level.

None of those reflect the basic arugment of this threat--that better attack skill should also reflect better attack defense. (Also, Full Defense seems to have vanished from 3.5...)

Full Defense still remains in 3.5. It is a standard action. It can go up slightly as you level up if you spend skill points in Tumble.

Attacking Defensively can go up slightly as you level up if you take Combat Expertise.

A 20th level fighter restricted to fighting without armor should not be as good as a 20th level fighter wearing armor.

Look at it this way: all those extra hit points of high level characters represent this "increased" defensive ability. Fighters are better at it than Wizards (even with their Shield spell), they have lots of hp to waste while wizards must conserve the few they have. 20th level fighters can take 10d6 damage and shrug it off. A normal human could not do that because he is not trained defensively to do so. A fighter is trained so that his actual "body points" (i.e. his life points, 1 to 8 hit points, normal for all humanoids) are conserved by avoiding those potentially killing blows for a long time: he spends his "defensive points" to totally avoid that strike.

A 20th level fighter cannot actually withstand a sword to the gut any better than a 1st level commoner, he just knows how to avoid it longer. Does it take 50 sword blows to take this 20th level fighter down? Or just one well-aimed one once his defenses are worn down?

Skilled defense is already a part of the game. It is also balanced to each of the classes.

Ciao
Dave

 

[GimbleRaulnor]

In an Armor = DR system, how would shields work?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Full Defense still remains in 3.5. It is a standard action. It can go up slightly as you level up if you spend skill points in Tumble.

Attacking Defensively can go up slightly as you level up if you take Combat Expertise.

A 20th level fighter restricted to fighting without armor should not be as good as a 20th level fighter wearing armor.

Look at it this way: all those extra hit points of high level characters represent this "increased" defensive ability. Fighters are better at it than Wizards (even with their Shield spell), they have lots of hp to waste while wizards must conserve the few they have. 20th level fighters can take 10d6 damage and shrug it off. A normal human could not do that because he is not trained defensively to do so. A fighter is trained so that his actual "body points" (i.e. his life points, 1 to 8 hit points, normal for all humanoids) are conserved by avoiding those potentially killing blows for a long time: he spends his "defensive points" to totally avoid that strike.

A 20th level fighter cannot actually withstand a sword to the gut any better than a 1st level commoner, he just knows how to avoid it longer. Does it take 50 sword blows to take this 20th level fighter down? Or just one well-aimed one once his defenses are worn down?

Skilled defense is already a part of the game. It is also balanced to each of the classes.

Surely it just comes down to this:

Some people think the system is just right as is, or close enough. They may or may not have their reasons.

Some people don't. As above, concerning reasons.

I could argue for hours on the merits of Defence Bonus increasing with level, as Base Attack Bonus does. Or, alternatively, I could appeal to common sense and reason, and take a lot less time.

But I know that the two lines of text prior to the paragraph above will hold true, and that's that.

 

[Nyaricus]

*bump*

this is a really useful post here, so i thought id bump it up, and add some of my own opinions/commentary

A 20th level fighter cannot actually withstand a sword to the gut any better than a 1st level commoner, he just knows how to avoid it longer. Does it take 50 sword blows to take this 20th level fighter down? Or just one well-aimed one once his defenses are worn down?

i couldnt have said it better. this is WotC's "hidden" defense bonus in every class. Simply, Fighters have better training, and can avoid blows better. Take a Fighter 20 and A Wizard 20, both with 14 Con, and no other items. the Fighter would have 145 HP (average) and the Wizard would have 82 HP (average) take a Orc with 14 Str and a Greataxe and a free swing at either > Thats 9 damage on average -OR- 1/9 of the Wizards HP or 1/16 the Fighters HP. who do you think is better at defending here? The Fighter, because, simply, he fights; ALOT.

instead of granting AC, armor grants DR equal to the AC it would normally grant. Remove the "maximum dexterity bonus" from the armor, why? because this was added to make sure AC+dex always equalled rougly 9, keeps everything balanced, but no longer relevant since armor no longer adds ac. Instead, apply the armor check penalty on the armor directly against the dexterity bonus of the user (allowing negative values). perhaps the armor and check penalties would have to be balanced, (probably some of the heavier check penalties decreased)

wow, some very good ideas here. You always read about those guys in the Full Plate being so clumsy and all, but in D&D, you can be reletively agile in it. To further round out the rule (or further complicate it??) maybe the max dex bonus could stay put. Meaning that a Fighter in Fullplate (which would be MW and have only -5 Armour Check Penalty) would have to have 22 Dex to gain any Dex bonus, and that would be the maximum (+1). wow, this is going to go in my house rules RIGHT NOW

In an Armor = DR system, how would shields work?

as to this, to clarify; a shield would give a "true" defense bonus, meaning it would apply as per the normal D&D rules. This represents the fact that shields are used to stops blows before they reach the body, while armour basically takes blows for the body (if using armour as DR, which is making more dn more sense)

 

[Aus_Snow]

An unarmored fighter shouldn't be as good at defending himself as a fully armored one. I'd make the AC bonus half the fighters BAB.

Realistically, a heavily armoured warrior would be a lot less capable of defending themselves. For example, in full plate, you simply can't move very well / very fast. Parrying and/or dodging is all about being able to respond quickly, as well as effectively.

edit - though it occurs to me now that you might have been saying that anyway, and I've read it the wrong way round... (?)

this is WotC's "hidden" defense bonus in every class. Simply, Fighters have better training, and can avoid blows better.

If that's true, what does healing magic, laying on hands etc. 'represent' in D&D? Is that a way of restoring "hidden" defense bonuses, or something..... ?





Anyway, I've gone to half BAB as Defense bonus, with Armour as DR, myself. Works a whole lot better - with the benefit of various other house rules - IMO, of course. Also, I still 'give out' far less magic items than is normal (understatement). YMMV, and so forth.

 

[Nyaricus]

If that's true, what does healing magic, laying on hands etc. 'represent' in D&D? Is that a way of restoring "hidden" defense bonuses, or something..... ?

whoa! sorry, didnt mean to offend you or something, but thats just my humble opinion > you simply have to look a bit deeper into it than normal to see the point that i and ElectricDragon made. I was just frasing (ugh i know the spellings wrong) it differntly. Healing is healing > Clerics and Pallys can heal well, and so they call upon their deity/higher calling and do so. when a fighters in combat, hes running from combatant to combatant, and gets hit accordingly, but as his skill (level) grows, he avoids or takes hits much better before that would have killed him at level one. Thus that Orc with a greataxe (9 damage average)
hitting a Fighter 1 (14 con) would be taking away 3/4 of the fighters hit points, but that level 20 fighter would only have 1/16 of his HP decreased, assuming a hit (and no other items/feats, etc)

I am not trying to add in a new game mechanic or anything here, but if you crunch the numbers, then you get a definite feel for what happens "between the lines" of combat.

 

[Errant]

This same issue has often bugged me. I accept that HPs are effectively a character's ability to avoid killing/incapacitating wounds, but when you roll to "hit", its hard to imagine your successful attach actually missing your target. Not to mention the official ways of avoiding getting hit at all (ie boosting your AC) are limited very limited without resorting to magic. Once he's strapped on full plate and shield, mastered Dodge, Combat Expertise & Improved CE, there's very little even the most dedicated Fighter can do to boost his AC without resorting to magic. His skill, training and experience count for little.

AC isn't supposed to keep pace with BAB.

Why not? Why is it so important that at high levels you must EXPECT to get hit by opponents of equal skill when at lower levels you can cut your chances of getting hurt dramatically? Consider, L20 Fighter in Full Plate +5, Tower Shield +5, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Dex 12+ (natural or magically boosted) & Dodge has an AC of 44 (if I add up right), and wielding a +5 weapon with Greater Weapon Focus & 22 Str (16 natural +6 belt of giant str for instance) has +33/+28/+23/+18 to hit, odds are he'll hit his own AC at least once or twice. A L2 fighter with Full Plate, Tower Shield, Dodge & Dex 12+ has an AC 24 and with a Masterwork/+1 weapon, Weapon Focus & 16 Str has +6 to hit, he'll be lucky to hit his opposite number even once. (I think 16 base Str is probably fairly average for fighter types)

One idea I played with IMC was to give everyone virtual Combat Expertise and Greater Combat Expertise -- basically anyone could move BAB to AC at will.

This would give a sense of AC improving with level without requiring any class modifications

I used a system like this for previous editions (+1 AC per -1 BAB taken) and it worked well. Combats became much more tactical and dramatic as players started balancing how much they wanted to hit their enemy against how much they wanted to avoid getting hit. I've only played since 3.5 came out, but it looks like I'll be DMing again soon & I think I'll be using it again. To make Combat Expertise & Greater CE worth it though, maybe make CE give you an extra +1 AC per -1 BAB up to a max of +2 AC for -2 BAB & GCE give you a maximum of +4 AC for -4 BAB.

Increasing damage via virtual Power Attack can work the same.

Naturally the bad guys get the same bonuses so high level monsters with high attack bonuses scare even high level fighters when they start pumping up their damage!

Thats my 2c worth.