Defenses and To Hits for Your Party ~ Averages

[TarionzCousin]

On page 112 of the Players Strategy Guide, it has a sidebar that tells the "average" numbers for AC, Other Defenses, To Hit vs. AC, and To Hit vs. Other Defenses for Characters and Monsters.

Table for Player Characters
Attack vs. AC 6 + Level
Attack vs. Other Defenses 4 + Level
AC 15 + Level
Other Defenses 13 + Level

According to this, an average 10th level PC should have:
+16 to hit AC
+14 to hit Fort, Ref, and/or Will
AC 25
Fort, Ref, and Will Defenses of 23

Of course these will vary for different classes, races, paragon paths, etc. But are they accurate?



I am asking because my 4E group doesn't. We have just hit 13th level and we are slightly below the 10th level example PC given above. We have level-appropriate gear.

Does your group average at these bonuses? If not, where are they?

Is the PSG's sidebar table wrong?

 

[Lancelot]

At 10th level, my deva avenger had:

• +14 attack vs AC (+5 level, +5 Wis, +2 axe prof, +2 enhancement), with the usual "roll twice and take the best" against her Oathed target. So, about equivalent to a +17 attack vs AC, given the Oath mechanic. Note also that if I wasn't playing an avenger, I would almost have certainly been using a +3 prof weapon and taken Versatile Expertise.
• Only +11 vs non-AC defense (as above, but no weapon prof and only a +1 holy symbol). However, I only had one implement power, so this was largely intentional on my part. If I had more implement powers, I would have taken Versatile Expertise and invested in a better holy symbol.
• AC 28 (+5 level, +4 Int, +3 enhancement, +2 Unarmored Agility feat, +4 Armor of Faith, incl. Improved AoF feat)
• Fort 21 (+5 level, +1 Con, +1 class, +1 feat, +3 enhancement)
• Reflex 24 (+5 level, +4 Int, +1 class, +1 feat, +3 enhancement)
• Will 25 (+5 level, +5 Wis, +1 class, +1 feat, +3 enhancement)

...and that's not counting other special bonuses (such as Deva +1 defenses vs bloodied creatures, Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes to increase and attack roll 1/encounter, etc). Note that the character is not particularly optimized. A +1 implement, +2 weapon, +3 neck slot. Starting stats (pre-racial) of 17 Wis, 15 Int.

So, yeah, pretty close to the target numbers given. Actually a little better. Average non-AC defenses are higher, AC is a lot higher, attack bonus is about right (except for implement, which I was largely ignoring).

Other members of my party had similar numbers, albeit with their "strengths" in different areas.

If your party is seeing numbers below those at 13th level, I recommend "upgrading" to Essentials rules, if nothing else. Improved Defenses feat gives flat +2 to all non-AC defenses at Paragon level. Also, the new Essentials "expertise" feats give a +2 attack bonus at 11th level - rather than the old Versatile Expertise feat which only kicks up to a +2 bonus at 15th level.

 

[Lancelot]

Actually, can you give a breakdown of an example character? Might be able to offer some suggestions or thoughts as to why they might be seeing lower scores than might otherwise be expected.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, it is both hard to generalize and hard to say what the reason for any deficiency is. The PSG advice in my experience is basically assuming the players do pretty much everything you'd do to improve your to-hit etc. If a group for instance focuses less of combat optimizing and more on say feats and items related to skills and whatnot, then they probably will fall a point or two behind.

Remember, you can always adjust the difficulty of encounters up or down as you wish.

 

[Aulirophile]

Well, at level 10 you should have 5 from stat, 5 from half level, +3 from a magic item (your group should have gotten its first +3 item at level 6, 2 at level 7, 3 at level 8, 4 at level 9, and 5 at level 10. Since the first thing to be upgrades should always be the trifecta of Armor/Weapon/Neck, that basically means by level 10 the group has a total of 15 +3 items at level 10, which by no strange coincidence means everyone has a +3 armor/weapon/neck) that is +13. Expertise (which many games give out for free and is the single best feat you can take for increasing your combat effectiveness usually), yep, +14 to NADs, 16 to AC (the +2 is just proficiency, a lot of weapon users will have +17 due to a +3 prof weapon) sounds like it is reasonable unless your DM is bad at loot, you didn't start with an 18 post-racial, or you didn't take expertise. Given how +2/-2 is designed to be a significant difference all of those strike me as a bad thing.

And Lancelot rolling twice is equivalent to +5 to hit, not +3.

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For defenses a Defender will usually have level+8, melee fighters will have level+6, and ranged can go as low as level+4 (not they that have to, but some builds will naturally fall in that range without effort to up it). NADs will vary a lot more based on stats, but yes, generally those numbers are a good average. If no one in your group is close to the 10th level example I'd venture a guess you don't have expertise, you really don't have level appropriate gear, you aren't using Masterwork armor (the cost of which is included in the armor), and no one took Paragon Defenses (or now Improved Defenses).

 

[TarionzCousin]

So, yeah, pretty close to the target numbers given. Actually a little better. Average non-AC defenses are higher, AC is a lot higher, attack bonus is about right (except for implement, which I was largely ignoring).

Other members of my party had similar numbers, albeit with their "strengths" in different areas.

If your party is seeing numbers below those at 13th level, I recommend "upgrading" to Essentials rules, if nothing else. Improved Defenses feat gives flat +2 to all non-AC defenses at Paragon level. Also, the new Essentials "expertise" feats give a +2 attack bonus at 11th level - rather than the old Versatile Expertise feat which only kicks up to a +2 bonus at 15th level.

Essentials feats are available, although only I own the books at this point, so the other players don't have them readily available.

For defenses a Defender will usually have level+8, melee fighters will have level+6, and ranged can go as low as level+4 (not they that have to, but some builds will naturally fall in that range without effort to up it). NADs will vary a lot more based on stats, but yes, generally those numbers are a good average. If no one in your group is close to the 10th level example I'd venture a guess you don't have expertise, you really don't have level appropriate gear, you aren't using Masterwork armor (the cost of which is included in the armor), and no one took Paragon Defenses (or now Improved Defenses).

You are right about the lack of the feats Paragon Defenses and/or Improved Defenses. As for our gear, most guys now have +3 weapons and armor at level 13, but the neck slots are still at +2.

Thanks for the information; this is exactly what I was wanting.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Actually, can you give a breakdown of an example character? Might be able to offer some suggestions or thoughts as to why they might be seeing lower scores than might otherwise be expected.

Good idea. Below is the group's fighter.


G, level 13
Dwarf, Fighter, Siegebreaker
Build: Great Weapon Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Gray Vale (Gray Vale Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15, Con 24, Dex 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 20, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.


AC: 29 Fort: 28 Reflex: 20 Will: 20
HP: 121 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 30

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +18, Nature +14, Athletics +12, Religion +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +7, History +7, Insight +8, Intimidate +5, Perception +8, Stealth +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +4

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Toughness
Level 4: Martial Freedom
Level 6: Melee Training (Constitution)
Level 8: Initiate of the Faith
Level 10: Hewing Charge
Level 11: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 12: Reliable Persistence

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Sure Strike (retrained to Threatening Rush at Level 5)
Fighter at-will 1: Crushing Surge
Fighter encounter 1: Punishing Charge (retrained to Bell Ringer at Level 3)
Fighter daily 1: Brute Strike
Fighter utility 2: Pass Forward (retrained to Unstoppable at Level 2)
Fighter encounter 3: Crushing Blow
Fighter daily 5: Pinning Smash (retrained to Bedeviling Assault at Level 10)
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Victorious Surge
Fighter utility 10: Reactive Surge
Fighter encounter 13: Anvil of Doom (replaces Bell Ringer)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Horned Helm (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (heroic tier), Boots of Eagerness (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (3), Flamedrinker Plate Armor +3, Frost Maul +3, Tattoo of Bloodied Chains (heroic tier), Belt of Blood (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +3, Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier), Frost Crossbow +2

 

[Obryn]

It's all about his Strength. MWT won't help his Fighter attacks at all, and his Strength is very poor.

-O

 

[Mengu]

G, level 13
Dwarf, Fighter, Siegebreaker

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 15

???

THIS would be a major problem. At 13th level Strength should be 19 at the least, but 21 more reasonably, going with the +2 Str and Con for the racial bonuses.

Edit: To be clear, the system assumes a minimum of 16 in your starting primary stat, with typically a racial boost (or else you sink an 18 into it), then pumping primary stat at every stat increase opportunity.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

???

THIS would be a major problem. At 13th level Strength should be 19 at the least, but 21 more reasonably, going with the +2 Str and Con for the racial bonuses.

Edit: To be clear, the system assumes a minimum of 16 in your starting primary stat, with typically a racial boost (or else you sink an 18 into it), then pumping primary stat at every stat increase opportunity.

Yeah, unlike say AD&D where you can play a character with an average prime req (like a 13) and your character will work OK in 4e you REALLY need a 16. With a 14 and heavy optimizing a character could squeak by but will still be under the curve. You really do have to put a point into your prime req at every stat boost too. Basically the 13 STR dwarf is paying a 2-3 point penalty in to-hit at level 1 and that will remain true right through level 30. Certainly the PSG numbers are assuming a 16-20 starting out.

The thing is the character obviously has stacked CON. Consider what the character would look like with a 3 lower CON and a 3 higher STR. He'd have a +2 to-hit, thus getting a good number more hits. In return he'd lose 3 hit points. He'd also be doing 2 more damage with each hit. Now, fighters certainly are there to be a wall more than to dish out damage, but 3 extra hit points isn't really going to help him much with staying up, even at 1st level. He's also not going to be a very good wall because his OAs and other MBAs that he relies on to keep enemies stuck to him (by punishing those that move away) are so inaccurate and low damage that the monsters will simply ignore them.

The upshot is that 4e really truly doesn't work well with stats much below 16 in prime reqs. It just assumes your character is heroically strong, smart, or whatever his forte is. Old D&D/AD&D/Basic sort of assumed you were a mostly ordinary person with maybe if you were lucky one strong point or two. It was scaled differently. Players making the transition can run into this problem.