defensive fighting and special attacks

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

kjenks: I see your point on PA during the grapple. Getting something for nothing is a good deal and obscenely abusive. I guess one way around it is to disqualify PA when grappling, as damage during grappling could be considered as "grappling damage" as opposed to "melee damage" and thus could be interpreted to disqualify PA from damage during grapples.

That's probably the best way.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

What's a melee damage roll?

I believe that it's a damage roll resulting from an attack with a melee weapon. A grapple check is not a melee weapon, therefore the damage roll from grappling does not benefit from Power Attack.

Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

"As if with an unarmed strike."

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

...

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

You can benefit from Power Attack when using the "Attack Your Opponent" action. You cannot benefit from Power Attack when using the "Damage Your Opponent" action.

That being said, what is the best way to get an "official" ruling on the specific case of grapple checks? As we seem to all be in agreement on the other special attacks.

You got me!

Here's generally much more official than the oft-contradictory FAQ and Sage's rulings.

 

[mostholy2]

Patryn: From the text you've quoted, I would be inclined to agree that your interpretation that PA applies to the "attack your opponent", but not "damage your opponent" from a literal sense is correct. However, you are still making grapple checks to accomplish these actions, not attack rolls. Therefore, you would be getting something for nothing.

I would therefore probably houserule that anything resolved with a grapple check cannot be modified by PA (or other "attack" bonus/penalty).

 

[Infiniti2000]

I do not get the sword's +4 bonus on the unarmed melee touch attack to begin a trip, a grapple, or my grapple check.

Well, that's fine since you cannot trip or grapple with a normal +4 longsword. I otherwise agree with your interpretation on the PA issue.

Patryn: From the text you've quoted, I would be inclined to agree that your interpretation that PA applies to the "attack your opponent", but not "damage your opponent" from a literal sense is correct. However, you are still making grapple checks to accomplish these actions, not attack rolls. Therefore, you would be getting something for nothing.

You are not making grapple checks on the "attack your opponent" option, you are making melee attack rolls at a penalty of -4. You do not get something for nothing.

 

[Thanee]

Grapple is totally messed up.

But I also would not let the penalty apply to grapple checks (neither any Power Attack damage bonuses).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, that's fine since you cannot trip or grapple with a normal +4 longsword.

Noticed that, did you?

You are not making grapple checks on the "attack your opponent" option, you are making melee attack rolls at a penalty of -4. You do not get something for nothing.

Note, also, that you are limited to unarmed strikes, light weapons, and natural weapons when in a grapple.

1 out of those 3 does not benefit at all from Power Attack.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not only that, Patryn, but even with a light weapon you could still use PA. No harm there because now you're getting nothing for something.

 

[kjenks]

There are two different concepts here: a grapple attack (which is a multi-step process) and a grapple check (which is used during that multi-step process).

A multi-step grapple attack is somewhat similar to a two-step weapon attack. In a two-step weapon attack, you make an attack roll first and then you roll damage. The multi-step grapple attack is more complicated, and it can be thwarted (by a an AoO which does damage in step 1 or by a opposed grapple check in step 3), but it is definitely a melee attack which inflicts damage.

A grapple attack is treated somewhat like a weapon, too. You can explicitly take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with grapple attacks.

You can make a grapple attack as an attack of opportunity, which shows just one more way in which a grapple attack is a melee attack.

Since a grapple attack is a melee attack, the damage bonus from Power Attack clearly does apply. The only real question is how much like a melee attack a grapple check is. The PH lists just one difference: size bonus. The wording and structure of the grapple check (BAB + Str + size mod) is just like the wording and structure of the melee attack, but with a different size mod. The FAQ is internally inconsistent. Customer Service gives conflicting answers. So it's just up to each DM to determine.

So let's think it through.

Does being prone affect your grapple checks (-4 penalty to attack rolls; FAQ supports this)? Do other condition modifiers affect grapple checks, like dazzled, entangled, frightened, invisible, negative levels, panicked, shaken, sickened or squeezing?

Does charging affect a grapple check in step 3 (+2 to single attack at the end of the charge)? What about flanking? Higher ground?

Does a Bless spell (morale bonus to attack rolls) affect your grapple check? Does a Bane spell (penalty to attack rolls) affect your grapple check?

How about a Prayer spell (luck bonus to your attack rolls, penalty to opponents' rolls)?

Does the attack penalty from Power Attack affect grapple checks? How about the attack penalties from other feats like Combat Expertise, Rapid Shot, or from two-weapon fighting or insufficient armor proficiency? And the tower shield attack penalty?

My answer to all of these questions is YES, bonuses and penalties that affect attack rolls also affect grapple checks. This is easy to run, it's consistent with the PH rules and most of the FAQ answers, but it's inconsistent with the "Vow of Poverty" FAQ entry.

You may, of course, choose to answer NO, but then you're stuck with the "something for nothing" problem with Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively and tower shields. All of these balance some advantage (damage or AC bonuses) with attack penalties. If your attack penalties don't apply, all grapplers would always Power Attack and Combat Expertise all the way, and Fight Defensively, too, since they'd get a benefit with no penalty. And that's not in the spirit of the rules as I see them.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The only time a grappler gains a benefit from CE or fighting defensively is when his opponent is attacking with a weapon and not actually grappling. This, of course, obviates the need for this discussion because then we are no longer talking about grapple checks. You don't mean to imply that you add the dodge bonus from CE or fighting defensively to your grapple check, do you? And, such bonuses do not apply outside the grapple because you lose your Dex bonus (and thus all dodge bonuses).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A multi-step grapple attack is somewhat similar to a two-step weapon attack. In a two-step weapon attack, you make an attack roll first and then you roll damage. The multi-step grapple attack is more complicated, and it can be thwarted (by a an AoO which does damage in step 1 or by a opposed grapple check in step 3), but it is definitely a melee attack which inflicts damage.

I disagree. It is clearly not a melee attack which inflicts damage. A grapple attempt is a melee attack (the touch attack) which allows you to enter another subsystem of rules. The grapple check itself is not a second melee attack.

A grapple attack is treated somewhat like a weapon, too. You can explicitly take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with grapple attacks.

Which, if it were cut-and-dried a melee weapon, would not need to be explicitly spelled out.

You can make a grapple attack as an attack of opportunity, which shows just one more way in which a grapple attack is a melee attack.

You may subsititute a grapple attempt for a melee attack in an attack of opportunity.

Since a grapple attack is a melee attack

Unproven.

the damage bonus from Power Attack clearly does apply.

Similarly unproven.

Does being prone affect your grapple checks (-4 penalty to attack rolls; FAQ supports this)?

No, and the FAQ is wrong when it supports this. Note that the other half of the FAQ does not support this. We wash.

Do other condition modifiers affect grapple checks, like dazzled, entangled, frightened, invisible, negative levels, panicked, shaken, sickened or squeezing?

Only inasmuch as they affect your BAB, Strength modifier, etc. Anything that specifically references attack rolls only affects the initial touch attack to begin a grapple. It does not affect your grapple checks (excepting the above, of course).

Does charging affect a grapple check in step 3 (+2 to single attack at the end of the charge)? What about flanking? Higher ground?

No, no, and no.

Note that, even if you were right and grapple checks *are* attack rolls, the Charge bonus would not apply.

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

Since the Charge bonus is used in Step 2, it is no longer available in Step 3 - just like it doesn't apply to the full-attack made by a Pouncing creature.

Does a Bless spell (morale bonus to attack rolls) affect your grapple check? Does a Bane spell (penalty to attack rolls) affect your grapple check?

Nope.

How about a Prayer spell (luck bonus to your attack rolls, penalty to opponents' rolls)?

Nope.

Does the attack penalty from Power Attack affect grapple checks? How about the attack penalties from other feats like Combat Expertise, Rapid Shot, or from two-weapon fighting or insufficient armor proficiency? And the tower shield attack penalty?

Only in Step 2, so no again.

My answer to all of these questions is YES, bonuses and penalties that affect attack rolls also affect grapple checks. This is easy to run, it's consistent with the PH rules

My answer to all of these questions is NO; bonuses and penalties that affect attack rolls do not also affect grapple checks. Thus is easy to run, it's consistent with PH rules, and consistant with the parts of the FAQ I care about.

You may, of course, choose to answer NO, but then you're stuck with the "something for nothing" problem with Power Attack,

No, because a grapple check to do damage is not a melee attack roll, and the damage is not a melee damage roll. It's a grapple damage roll.

If your attack penalties don't apply, all grapplers would always Power Attack and Combat Expertise all the way, and Fight Defensively, too, since they'd get a benefit with no penalty. And that's not in the spirit of the rules as I see them.

Rather, they'd have a damned hard time starting a grapple with all the penalties, they couldn't Combat Expertise or Fight Defensively once they were in a grapple (denied their Dex = denied Dodge bonuses to AC, and can't choose the "Attack" or "Full Attack" actions).

By my reading, they could do any or all of these and get no appreciable benefit for quite a large penalty. And that's in the spirit of the rules as I see them.

 

[mostholy2]

inifinity2000: actually I started the thread with the idea that you could initiate a grapple/trip, etc.. while defensive fighting, thereby increasing your AC to make the initial AoO for the opponent more difficult to succeed (thus immediately stopping your attack). By doing this you would incur the -4 attack penalty to your initial touch attack, but as touch AC is often much lower than true AC the -4 penalty would not be as much of a concern.

However, after getting into the discussion the thread spilled into when bonuses/penalties applied in specific special attack circumstances.

So yes, I do agree that it is pointless to use CE or defensive fighting when actively involved in a grapple, but for the purpose outlined above, could be very relevant.