Definition of Helpless and Coup de Grace

[Arrowhawk]

Still, my point is, i don't think it messes up the balance to read it as written and call "totally at the opponents mercy" helpless.

What are we balancing?

The Coup de Grace is obviously the game designers creating a game mechanic whereby you can kill someone who is "helpless" in one round without people have to hack at a creature like a butcher. Clearly they did not intend for this to be a mechanic whereby anyone could go around slitting throats on the unsuspecting.

Your question juxtaposes "completely at an opponent’s mercy" with "totally unaware of your presence" and seems to be asking why those shouldn't be considered the same thing. I think the short answer is that in the case of the former, you offer no resistance to the coup de grace..whether you can or cannot. In the latter, you are able to react as soon as you become aware of the attempted coup de grace and WotC has seemingly decided that this foils the attempt...universally.

 

[Greenfield]

Simple question: Will the "totally unaware" person that you're approaching under invisibility and perfect silence remain "totally unaware" for the full round it takes you to perform the coup de gras? Or will they, at some point in the exchange, notice you grabbing their chin, pulling it up to expose their jugular, while reaching around with a knife in your hand to do the slash?

If they're the kind of people who can notice and react, then you're getting a sneak attack, not a coup de gras.

Even "lost in a good book" probably doesn't keep someone from noting six seconds of assault.

Even a headset-wearing WOW player in mid raid would notice, if only because you're interfering with their DPS output. (Some people have no sense of priorities, ya know? At least wait 'til the boss-monster falls, will ya? )

 

[Jeffrie]

Well, to explain my opinion, i don't mean to imply that a person reading a book shouldn't have a multiple of chances to notice something strange. Sense Motive, blindsight, listen, spot, scent, just to name a few. In this instance, if i was the DM, i would allow the target to roll several to many rolls (as many as he could justify).

But if you are a low level nobody, and an 'assassin' has greater invis, zone of silence, move silent (to prevent the visible manifestation of bumping something), and levitates to you while you sit with your back to the room naked, then you have 6 seconds to roll a spot, sense motive, and/or your choice of other alarm.

Coup de Grace is a full round action, but it is only one strike. I see it to say it takes about 5.5 seconds to maneuver your body and weapon to the right spot and only about 0.5 seconds to insert the weapon in a vital spot.

Perhaps it's just my appetite for intrigue that makes me think an important, rich, high level, hero type should keep his back to the wall, and leave a watch (then there would be several folks with a chance to notice something funny.

But perhaps that would just get every character killed too fast. . . I certainly think i understand what this majority has been repeating to me.

 

[Talonblaze]

If your a low level person going to get attacked by a high level assassin, even them not getting a 'coup de grace' matters little since chances are your going to get dropped below -10 anyways.

Its a thing of mechanics though, that is why Assassin's have Death Attack, which is essentially also what the flair of such attempts were made for. Would kinda bite if any character off the street could pull that off.

Your probably looking for a DM that does hardcore rules for more realism in such regard, which will probably have more implications. Even a character asleep gets a -10 (or is it -20?) to listen and such checks to notice creeping enemies in such a state. As noted there could be other reasons for the 'no insta-kill' in such cases. Can even stretch as far as divine intervention.

 

[kitcik]

What are we balancing?

The Coup de Grace is obviously the game designers creating a game mechanic whereby you can kill someone who is "helpless" in one round without people have to hack at a creature like a butcher. Clearly they did not intend for this to be a mechanic whereby anyone could go around slitting throats on the unsuspecting.

Your question juxtaposes "completely at an opponent’s mercy" with "totally unaware of your presence" and seems to be asking why those shouldn't be considered the same thing. I think the short answer is that in the case of the former, you offer no resistance to the coup de grace..whether you can or cannot. In the latter, you are able to react as soon as you become aware of the attempted coup de grace and WotC has seemingly decided that this foils the attempt...universally.

Sidenote: first time I have completely agreed with an [MENTION=6679551]Arrowhawk[/MENTION] post.

 

[Empirate]

Well, to explain my opinion, i don't mean to imply that a person reading a book shouldn't have a multiple of chances to notice something strange. Sense Motive, blindsight, listen, spot, scent, just to name a few. In this instance, if i was the DM, i would allow the target to roll several to many rolls (as many as he could justify).

But if you are a low level nobody, and an 'assassin' has greater invis, zone of silence, move silent (to prevent the visible manifestation of bumping something), and levitates to you while you sit with your back to the room naked, then you have 6 seconds to roll a spot, sense motive, and/or your choice of other alarm.

Coup de Grace is a full round action, but it is only one strike. I see it to say it takes about 5.5 seconds to maneuver your body and weapon to the right spot and only about 0.5 seconds to insert the weapon in a vital spot.

Perhaps it's just my appetite for intrigue that makes me think an important, rich, high level, hero type should keep his back to the wall, and leave a watch (then there would be several folks with a chance to notice something funny.

But perhaps that would just get every character killed too fast. . . I certainly think i understand what this majority has been repeating to me.

First off, even a thousand skill checks won't do the assaulted person any good once the assailant has enough ranks in Hide/Move Silently. Skill checks can't auto-succeed or auto-fail. A high-level Assassin will always be able to sneak up to low-level goons unless the guard dog catches his scent. Many checks don't provide a check (hah!) to house rule abuse in this case.

It doesn't take a check to notice that you're being grabbed to expose your vitals, or to notice that somebody just put the point of their dagger on your chest, right over the heart. At that point, you can react (likely by shouting in a slightly panicky fashion, and flailing wildly about) - which foils the coup de grace attempt, but is likely to still not help you escape unscathed --> sneak attack damage.

Please don't bring specific timespans into this. How many tenths of a second this or that part of your action takes is no part of the D&D ruleset. You can do a full-round action (which takes roughly all of 6 seconds, but that's guesstimate and subject to circumstances), or you can take a standard action (which leaves you enough time in a roughly-six-secon-timespan to also move about a little, or draw a weapon or whatever). Those are the kinds of things you can do. Coup de Grace? Full round action, is all we need to know. 0.5 seconds or 6 seconds, it makes no difference to us.

Also, where do you get the idea that coup de grace is only one strike? Sure, you can picture it that way. But it can also be roughly six seconds of madly stabbing the other guy's abdomen (I'd say you can get about a dozen stabs in in that time), or two savage cuts to the neck (one on each side) followed by a third to complete the decapitation, or a slow inexorable push of stiletto into eyeball, or a bash-bash-bash-BASH! of heavy mace on cranium, or carefully applying an armlock around the head and TWISTing, or what-have-you.

Finally, there's rules for one-shotting an opponent, and that's the Death Attack class feature. You want to pull off that "sneak up, then stab to death in one swift motion" maneuver, you better take levels in a class that allows you to. OR you simply do enough damage with your first attack, which should be a given vs. low-level opponents most of the time anyway.

 

[jasper]

...Coup de Grace..
Here's my question. If you are invisible and silent and the opponent is awake and standing/etc, but totally unaware of your presence, can you then perform a coup de grace?

What if you are in disguise and he is sitting at a desk with his back to you?

thanks

How about I reverse the question?
You are sitting at your desk doing you homework. (Rotten Rogue Risks Freshman level by Piratecat Publishing).
And my npc... insert your question.
Now do think it would be fair if my NPC Rogue Coup de Grace you?

 

[Jeffrie]

How about I reverse the question?
You are sitting at your desk doing you homework. (Rotten Rogue Risks Freshman level by Piratecat Publishing).
And my npc... insert your question.
Now do think it would be fair if my NPC Rogue Coup de Grace you?

Yes. IF he was disguised as my brother, then went invisible, then snuck across the room in a comic book perfection, all without tripping or breathing or even giving me the pricklies, and then shoved a shortsword through my heart with trained surgical ninja precision (I might make some noise).
BUT, in my way of DMing, i would have given the target (me) about 10 rolls to notice something/anything.

Yet, as i say, i do recognize the basic concept that the game needs balance, and that skills like disguise and move silent, etc, could make coup de grace too common and easy.

And of course, there is the Death Attack class feature.

 

[Talonblaze]

[MENTION=93465]Jeffrie[/MENTION]

Actually that there alone would probably rouse the character in question to be suspicious.
If you saw your brother, but noted he didn't make a sound, wasn't acting at all like himself and conveniently hides behind you, I would be a little suspicious.
Happens in alot of spy cases as well for those who try and use such tricks. There is always clues.
Especially if the brother in this case was never light footed and even so, why would he be so quiet?