Defy elven forest-fighting tactics! (Now open to my players)

[derelictjay]

Except that it's not a seige of a fortress with walls, it's guerrilla warfare against the folks that are harassing your main troop and supply columns. Marching through the forests building ramps (up to what, exactly? the top of some random tree) or in tortoise formation seems pretty counterproductive to me.

Yes, I see what your saying, but there is a keep and it's in the forest. See it says its 50 miles into a forest. Quite a long trip actually and a fire really wouldn't work that well. Best thing to do would be to figure out a quick way to maul down trees and create a 50 ft. wide path through the forest. Of course the guerrilla tactics would moe down your forces as your doing that. Other than that your best tactic would be to seize control of the river, but the keep already does that doesn't it. Your best tactic, assault from all sides, burn/chop down the forest, send waves of troops down the river, and send out parties of woods-orcs to try and take out elf hunting parties. And hopefully their to busy putting out fires/stopping woodcutter to catch the woods-orcs from killing them from behind, and arrowing the river wading troops to death.

 

[StalkingBlue]

Ok, a bunch of ideas already, cool!

Some comments and clarifications.

I'm the DM. I'm giving you a specific setup of something the orcs are currently working on in the current campaign area. Although taking the keep would be nice, coping with the forest-fighting is more of a priority right now.

The PCs are human renegades fighting the orcs along the river. The term 'Vietnam' has popped up more than once in my group. I wonder why...


Re burnin' and choppin':
We're working on it. The damn forest is still a couple million square miles big, so we will be a while.

Joshua Dyal:
Please let's ignore magic support for now, as I said. Legates and channelers are rare in the orcish army (much rarer than spellcasters on the elf side), plus too setting-specific for most posters here to make sense out of them.

Rodrigo: Diverting the river, nice. Feints work to some extent, unfortunately splitting troops up into smaller units invites attacks from elven guerrilla and human renegade bands.

derelictjay: Ramps might work in conjunction with diverting the river to actually get at the keep, which sits on a rock among cataracts.

Nifft: Psychic screening by scattering fires around the place and torturing prisoners? Very nice. Very appropriate. I wish we could get our hands on enough live elf to make that an even more effective and widespread tactic ...

JimAde: There's a fortified camp already. Building a stronghold upriver from the keep is brilliant but will require more troops, we're hoping for reinforcements. Meanwhile, how to hold out and keep us from being cut off?

Thornir: What we need to keep the river clear of is blockades. Chains spanning the river, submerged wrecks of ships the enemy takes from us that blocks passage, that sort of thing. Obviously we're not holding every single mile of those accursed riverbanks, if we did that problem with the keep would long have been solved. Landing sites we've got, fenced, too. Since we've started manning them with a couple of hunts (60-70 orcs) each, they tend to stay. Attrition is going on all right. Not sure how long we're going to have to hold out - maybe we're here only as a thorn in the elves' side by now, maybe another couple of legions are getting ready to ship upriver as we speak. Who knows...

derelictjay: We've tried paths, in fact we keep making paths. Dunno what it is, paths tend to curl around on themselves, wander off somewhere deadly (for us) or disappear entirely when we're not looking. It's not like everyone who goes out of sight of the river is a dead orc, but we've found it's safer and less disorienting to stay near the waterways.

 

[Dark Jezter]

First off, I'm going to say that this is one of the greatest thread ever.

As mentioned above, clearing the forest (by fire or axe) will deny the elves the cover that they are using to their advantage. Use low-ranking soldiers with woodchopping axes, balls of flaming pitch fired from catapults, and flaming arrows to quickly destroy the elves' forest homes.

You will also want to employ special forces -- highly trained and motivated light infantry -- to carry out missions deep in the forest. The missions for the special forces will primarily be reconnaissance, but occasionally you might send them out on search-and-destroy missions to find and eliminate spellcasters or particularly troublesome elven squads.

War is a psychological exercise as much as a physical one, and as Sun Tzu once said, "All war is based on deception." Use misinformation to trick the elves into making unwise moves, such as preparing for an assault that will never come, or attacking a caravan that is much more heavily-guarded than they were led to believe.

I'll be back with more later.

 

[Nifft]

Dam the river downstream of the fortress and flood that area.

Dam the river upstream of the fortress and deprive them of water (temporarily) while you walk over and start fires on their land, or just storm the walls.

Got any Fell? They make great Marines, and excellent water-traps for river-goers who lack a Legate. (Grapple and pull prey into water.)

-- N

 

[StalkingBlue]

(Still pretending to be the orcs here.)

Typical enemy small-unit tactics include:

Shoot arrows (fire or non) at passing boats from trees, talann (wooden platforms in trees with railings that give cover, nasty things) or rope bridges.

Block the river with vines or chains under water that catch in and break rudders and screw up a convoy's movements, then set boats on fire or (if outnumbering, which is rare) board and kill everyone aboard, take supplies and scuttle the boats for even better blockage.

By the time we get to where the killing happened, they have melted away. In some instances they have taken the ropes for their bridges to span elsewhere.

Ambush scouting or hunting parties. We've learnt to avoid splitting troops up in groups of fewer than 30 or so unless we stay pretty much within hollering distance of camp.

Assassinate leader types. If they have magic available, they can fly through the air without wings and worse, be unseen. They can make things appear the way they are not.

Send watery things down the river to assault our troops and boats. (We have things in the water further downriver, so at least our convoys don't have to fear attacks from the water or from enemy boats until maybe 30 or 40 miles in.)

 

[argo]

So, your occupying force of heavy infantry is mired in a war of attrition against locals who use guerilla tactics in forest/jungle/urban terrain and are friendly with the natives? Oh yeah, if history teaches us anything it's that the heavy infantry has the advantage here

You don't really have a lot of good options, my advice is to just suck it up and stay focused. They win if they can sink your morale low enough that you abandon the campagin as not worth the cost. You win if you can grind them down, outlast them and that's difficult. Don't go looking for a quick-win scenario, there is none. Don't try to play their game either, they are better at it than you. Stick to your strengths: heavy power, numbers, orgnization, and vast resources. You may be tempted to throw your forces at them in mass, don't. If your casualties outsrtip your reenforcements you loose. Fight defensevly but don't fight conservatevly. Be agressive at all times, bulldog them to death. Whatever you do, whenever you move, do it in strength. A patrol of 5 orcs is worthless (unless you are using them as bait) move in platoon strength or greater. As you encroach on the forest establish a foward moving line of interlocking defense points. Anywhere you establish a perimiter push back the forest at least 100 yards beyond, this includes tall grass too, nothing bigger than a mouse ought to be able to approach your positions undetected. Every unit should be under the observation of two other units at all times. This allows you to provide support for your troops so a small unit can never be cut off and outnumbered (remember, they may have fewer numbers overall but if they concentrate on one point at a time they could still overwhelm you) and in the event the stinking elves actually do get bold enough to try and move in force it allows you to respond quickly to the situation as it develops (something that the elves, with their high forest mobility, probably think is their advantage). It also helps you prevent their raiders from sliping past your front lines. With your greater numbers you have the ability to rotate your troops and keep the ones on the front relatevly fresh, do so. Above all keep the pressure up, stay in close contact with the enemy at all times, wear them down. Your plan is to grind the elves and their ugly forest into the ground, get to wrok doing it and don't let up. Absouetly put together some kind of special forces units but remember: they aren't going to win the war for you. Their job is to 1)gather intel 2)seek and destroy high-priority targets (enemy leadership) 3)keep troop morale high by demonstrating just how badass you can be 4)harass the enemy so they don't get any rest.

Advance tactics will mostly revolve around forcing the enemy into a stand-up fight. That will mostly involve finding something so valuable to the elves that they are obligated to defend it, even guerilla fighters have to have a supply depot/staging area somewhere. They will counter by keeping their structure diffuse and mobile so you can't find these points. Good intel is key here followed by a fast response time, be opportunistic. Perhaps if you make threatening gestures towards the fort (deception) the enemy will get desperate and begin a buildup of forces in prepration for a rescue attempt. In that event play it cool, open a door for them (don't be obvious) lure them in and crush them. Stay focused on your long-term goal: a build-up of forces that, as it grows, slowly pushes back the forest and grinds up all enemy opposition that is sent to stop it with minimal losses to itself. I don't know what the exact population ratios are but, unlike most orcish campagins, you need to limit yoruself to a 1:1 or 1:2 kill ratio at the worst. This thing is a contest of willpower and, despite conventional wisdom, you can win but only if you stay determined and play it agressive and close to the vest. Luckily for you I doubt there is an orcish "peace movement" back home.

As for the fort itself, assuming you have it prety well contained it should fall to the siege in due time. Since you are settling in for the long haul anyway you might as well divert a small unit to begin sapping opperations.

Good luck.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Where's the stealth, man?

Sure, the elves are sneaking around buggering you, but where's your own stealth? Where's the small goblin rogues with their dirty little sneak attacks? The bugbear thugs with their natural size and power, AND their ability to be stealthy. Elves may be agile, but they ain't especially more perceptive than your average bugbear or goblin...who can beat them in a Hide check. Don't just burn the forest, sneak into their homes and burn them. Preferably with the kids still in 'em. If the trees tell them where you are, be invisible -- trees don't have eyes.

If they're thwarting the sneaking, get some allies. Spring disease on 'em, poison, hell, kill the plants if you can while you're at it. A poisoned water supply or a tree-targeting disease will make the cut-and-burn a lot more productive, as the plants and animals who may be their allies fall prey, and the elves fall even quicker (awww, poor 9 Con).

And after you're done with the first-level nobodies, and you've got a big tower and a steady supply line, THEN you can worry about the rest of them -- take captives, kill those who come to save them, then kill the captives. Hurt their morale, hurt their health, make them angry enough to come and get you. They're elves -- they'll run to their deaths just so some other tribe in a forest can sing sad songs about 'em for a hundred years.

 

[derelictjay]

If they're thwarting the sneaking, get some allies. Spring disease on 'em, poison, hell, kill the plants if you can while you're at it. A poisoned water supply or a tree-targeting disease will make the cut-and-burn a lot more productive, as the plants and animals who may be their allies fall prey, and the elves fall even quicker (awww, poor 9 Con).

And after you're done with the first-level nobodies, and you've got a big tower and a steady supply line, THEN you can worry about the rest of them -- take captives, kill those who come to save them, then kill the captives. Hurt their morale, hurt their health, make them angry enough to come and get you. They're elves -- they'll run to their deaths just so some other tribe in a forest can sing sad songs about 'em for a hundred years.

That was my initial thought as well, but how are you going to do it, there water supply is obviously the river, to big and fast moving to poison, and disease, you'd need magic, and stalking blue said no magic. Sorry to debunk this, but would be a good idea in other situations.

Unless your going to find the most disease ridden troops in your army and march them in to infect the elves (not very effective), my thoughts were to catapult diseased goblins into the keep. But it seems a bit hokey

 

[Zephyrus]

EDIT - Sorry.. a whole bunch of posts were posted before I finished mine so sorry if some of it has been debunked. However, I still think that covered war-wagons and war-barges are good tools.

Mini-Siege towers placed every so often as 'look out' towers and marker points. Place the towers so that they have a 50-100ft wide 'pathway' to the next tower and that the tower beyond is also visiable (in other words dont snake the pathway too much. Build them in a 'grid' if nessisary so that you have wide pathways between each 'patch' of woods. Start off small but expand. Make some of the early towers mobile while later making larger perminent watch towers. As you secure more territory move your supplies and troops via large wheeled bunkers (easier than everyone walking in a shield formation).

To minimize the liklyhood of trenchs being dug at night to slow or damage these supply trains have one or two outside the bunker leading the way by 10-20ft so if a covered pit occures, they fall in first and the wagon can stop before it crashes. In addition, make the wagon be able to lay small wheel-ramps so that they can quickly lay quick bridges over such impasses. If you manage to capture anyone make them walk out front instead. their less likly to be shot in an ambush. In general. have the orcs become a warmachine. burn or clearcut wide pathways through the woods to move troops and supplies through.

A dozen orcs can push 30ft long by 15-20ft wide covered war-wagon would reasonable ease (their orcs. their strong stupid and if they dont keep pushing they'll get trappled by the guy behind him!). The Wagon will have a tower thats maybe 10ft-15ft tall with another size to a dozen orcs with Crossbows keeping watch for ambush. the tower becomes a bunker in the event of a ambush. If the elves start trying to set fire to them. wet em down so the wood doesnt catch fire. Use these towers as bunker-outposts to keep over-watch on loging operations.

Frequently use Alchemy or other 'fire' arrows at extream ranges to set fire to the woods at a distance. If the elves drop a tree down in front of your pathways have your Crossbow archers throw down/shoot smoke sticks into the woods while a wood cutting team quickly advances. cuts the log and clears a path. When Archer-ambushes are expected make liberal use of smoke. its harder to hit what you cant see. Obsurment and Cover is your friend. Have your Tree-clearing crew's also have blind fighting so that if the elves charge into melee you've got a chance to over come the miss chance the concealment gives the both of you.

Engines of war is the theme. For the Elves it'll be like fighting APC's and Tanks (Larger bunkers with Ballista and Catapults built into them) with infantry. Anti-Tank (Fire ball spells and other things that could do alot of damage like their own catapults) weapons cant be THAT common among hte elves so move your forces simaltainiously so if one unit gets hit the others get through, that or their resources are spread very thin. Have other units in the woods hanging back just a bit following from a short distance ready to counter-ambush with a focus on targeting spellcasters and/or have mobile catapults with burning oil ready to fire upon the woods flanking a caravan.

Have fake 'supply' caravans which have no supplies and instead has an Infernal Machine (?, the form o siege weapon that used a 'slap' arm to propel clusters of arrows in massive vollies) or have hte inside of the war-wagons rigged with crossbows in fixed positions so that multiple bows could be fired simaltainiously.

Have the look outs be wary of potential dead-falls that might be used to land ON the war-wagons. If the elves start using this tactic have Tower-Shield equipped Orcs walk along and just in the wood line a little ahead to look out for such things. Ambushes might be sprung early this way as the elves attempt the lookouts from spotting hte dead falls. Alternatly they may let them through and the lookouts spot the deadfalls thus springing a potential ambush early as well.

Keep doing things differently. Dont let the elves adapt but dont show all your tricks at once. Work things in combonation. mix and match. If something is going particularly well be extra causious as you do them as they might come up with a way around it. Start laying ambushes for the enemy.

Deny Deny Deny... remove their advantages...

If the pathways are making things hard on you to nagivate. Dont take paths.. Make Roads! Elves are subtle. Orc's arnt. make your own landmarks that cant be easily confused thus having perminent watchtowers that cant be missed on a 50ft foot and wheel packed roads.

hit and run tactics, expecially ones that rely on archery sniping require the ability to see the enemy and to have a target to shoot at. Thus make liberal use of cover and concealment. the elves use the forest to give them cover and concealment. Make your own! War-Wagons with arrow and watch slits that provide 3/4 and 9/10ths cover makes it very hard to hit a target. skirts on the wagons provide protection to the feet of the wagon drivers. Fire and Smoke cause concealment granting concealment which provided a target knows a targets location still gives the target up to a 50% miss chance.

Likewise change the terrain by destroying the forest in wide swathes steals the familiarity away from the enemy, at least. At best its starts giving you terrain familiarity.

They've got magical support. Fine. make your own in the form of alchemy or other work-arounds. better yet, if your able to capture enemy spellcasters, torture them into working for you. It can be risky but the rewards can be great. They'll either comply or they will suffer. Manical them hand and ankle to a orc or goblin to make escape difficult. Cause psychological disorders by branding them occationally and causing similar pain that will heal but cause physical and emotional scars that can be used to make them compliant.

Take every setback, missing whatever, late patrol seriously but not so much that you tire your troops out.

Hope these ideas help.. am interested in hearing what some people thing of some of them.

 

[Nifft]

"They're wearing baby-armor!"

Use human & halfling slaves to build that road. Hide behind the slaves while firing your flaming x-bow bolts at raiders.

Of course the Elves will try to free your slaves. Duh.

The slaves are traps. They are diseased, or they are full of explosives, or something hideous. Sure, lots of slaves will die who don't get "liberated". And?

-- N