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Delaying feats
- Thread starter Dimwhit
- Start date
I think this was addressed recently on these boards (somewhere around 2-3 weeks ago :\ ).
But regardless - the only thing that the PHB (and SRD) says must be taken when leveling up and can't be saved for later are class abilities/functions and skills (it specifically addresses not keeping unused skill points for later use). It does not specifically address feats though.
But regardless - the only thing that the PHB (and SRD) says must be taken when leveling up and can't be saved for later are class abilities/functions and skills (it specifically addresses not keeping unused skill points for later use). It does not specifically address feats though.
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HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
I've allowed it before, because I couldn't find a citation that really said you couldn't, and if having Feat A was important enough to not have ANY feat for X levels until you qualified, then sure.
--fje
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Nonlethal Force
First Post
I will occasionally allow people to hold off on a feat if they have played the character from level 1 (or at least for a significant number of levels before they want to hold of on the feat). This way, I figure I have been watching their character development and I can decipher if they are doing something that will make it broken or not.
However, I never allow players to hold a feat during character generation - especially if it is a game starting 5th level or above. This can quickly lead to brokeness.
The difference, in my mind, is that if a character wants to play through a few level being down a feat or two ... then they will have to perserve through being down a feat. But if a character is making say a 10th level character and the just state "when he was 5thlevel he held off on a feat until he got to 7th level and qualified for X feat then took it" ... well, to me that seems like getting something for nothing. In my mind it is entirely different if a player is willing to play down a feat for a while vs. a player who just says they did it sometime in their character's past.
But, ultimately, what I said above is a houserule. To answer your question without giving you a houserule, I do not remember any citation that says you cannot hold a feat - but if you allow it, just be careful because depending on the feat it can lead to brokenness by allowing a player to advance down a feat chain quicker than game mechanics normally allow.
However, I never allow players to hold a feat during character generation - especially if it is a game starting 5th level or above. This can quickly lead to brokeness.
The difference, in my mind, is that if a character wants to play through a few level being down a feat or two ... then they will have to perserve through being down a feat. But if a character is making say a 10th level character and the just state "when he was 5thlevel he held off on a feat until he got to 7th level and qualified for X feat then took it" ... well, to me that seems like getting something for nothing. In my mind it is entirely different if a player is willing to play down a feat for a while vs. a player who just says they did it sometime in their character's past.
But, ultimately, what I said above is a houserule. To answer your question without giving you a houserule, I do not remember any citation that says you cannot hold a feat - but if you allow it, just be careful because depending on the feat it can lead to brokenness by allowing a player to advance down a feat chain quicker than game mechanics normally allow.
Dimwhit
Explorer
Thanks all. This was actually for a friend's character. There's a PrC he wants to takes starting at 6th level. It requires 8 ranks in a certain skill (no problem) and a feat that requires 5 ranks in that some skill. Without holding a feat, he would have to wait until 6th level to take it and 7th for the PrC. If, however, he doesn't take a feat at 3rd level and instead waits until 5th when he has the needed skills, he can take the PrC at 6th level.
Like you, we can't find anything in the rules that forbids holding a feat. And since it actually fits well with the character development, I think the DM is going to allow it. But otherwise, I'm still not sure it can be disallowed. At least by the book.
Like you, we can't find anything in the rules that forbids holding a feat. And since it actually fits well with the character development, I think the DM is going to allow it. But otherwise, I'm still not sure it can be disallowed. At least by the book.
Now, I'll start by saying that I don't see a significant problem with letting someone postpone taking a feat...a little while. Particularly when you're looking at a multiclassed character, there's often a discrepancy between when you achieve the feat pre-reqs and when you get your next access to a feat...it's especially obvious with feats that have a Caster Level pre-req.
That said - I don't believe a strict reading of the RAW would allow it. When a character advances in level, there's a specific list of things they gain and the order in which they gain them. You gain 'skill points', and you're explicitly told you have to spend those immediately, as someone else pointed out. And, as was pointed out, it doesn't say that about feats. But it doesn't need to. You're not gaining 'feat points' or 'feat slots' or 'feat choices'...you're gaining 'a feat'. Every 3 levels, "the character gains one feat of your choice". Not 'can choose later', not 'is permitted to pick'...gains. Right now.
If it makes the game more fun or more playable, houserule it. I don't think it's a problem. But if the question is 'what's the standard rule', I'm pretty convinced the intent was that you must select your new feat immediately.
(Incidentally...if you do houserule it, I suggest limiting how LONG a player's allowed to postpone taking their feat. Feats with higher pre-reqs are generally more powerful than feats with lower pre-reqs, and if you put no limit on how long people can delay, they'll hoard their picks until they can buy mega-feats. A quick, easy limit would be that you have to spend each general feat before you get another one. So, you could take your 3rd level feat at 4th or 5th, but you couldn't wait any longer than that.)
That said - I don't believe a strict reading of the RAW would allow it. When a character advances in level, there's a specific list of things they gain and the order in which they gain them. You gain 'skill points', and you're explicitly told you have to spend those immediately, as someone else pointed out. And, as was pointed out, it doesn't say that about feats. But it doesn't need to. You're not gaining 'feat points' or 'feat slots' or 'feat choices'...you're gaining 'a feat'. Every 3 levels, "the character gains one feat of your choice". Not 'can choose later', not 'is permitted to pick'...gains. Right now.
If it makes the game more fun or more playable, houserule it. I don't think it's a problem. But if the question is 'what's the standard rule', I'm pretty convinced the intent was that you must select your new feat immediately.
(Incidentally...if you do houserule it, I suggest limiting how LONG a player's allowed to postpone taking their feat. Feats with higher pre-reqs are generally more powerful than feats with lower pre-reqs, and if you put no limit on how long people can delay, they'll hoard their picks until they can buy mega-feats. A quick, easy limit would be that you have to spend each general feat before you get another one. So, you could take your 3rd level feat at 4th or 5th, but you couldn't wait any longer than that.)
The procedure for leveling up given in the PHB is complete and exhaustive. You do what it says, and don't do what it does not say.
Saying that it does not forbid saving a feat, and that therefore it is permitted, leads to all kinds of odd results. For example, the rules don't explicitly forbid you from automatically acquiring wings when you get to 5th level; does that mean that your character can now fly?
If a prestige class has requirements that make it difficult to enter at a particular level, that is probably intentional. You can fudge the requirements if you like, but that is as much a house rule as waiving them entirely.
Saying that it does not forbid saving a feat, and that therefore it is permitted, leads to all kinds of odd results. For example, the rules don't explicitly forbid you from automatically acquiring wings when you get to 5th level; does that mean that your character can now fly?
If a prestige class has requirements that make it difficult to enter at a particular level, that is probably intentional. You can fudge the requirements if you like, but that is as much a house rule as waiving them entirely.
atom crash
First Post
The PHB, p. 58, says:
"When your character attains a new level, make these changes.
...7. Feats: Upon attaining 3rd level and at every third level thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level), the character gains one feat of your choice ...
...9. Class Features: Check your character's class description in this chapter for any new capabilities your character may receive. Many characters gain special attacks or new special powers as they advance in levels."
By my reading of the rules, a character gains a feat when he advances a level. He does not gain a feat slot that is filled; he gains a feat. He would also gain any bonus feat granted by class feature when he advances a level.
"When your character attains a new level, make these changes.
...7. Feats: Upon attaining 3rd level and at every third level thereafter (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level), the character gains one feat of your choice ...
...9. Class Features: Check your character's class description in this chapter for any new capabilities your character may receive. Many characters gain special attacks or new special powers as they advance in levels."
By my reading of the rules, a character gains a feat when he advances a level. He does not gain a feat slot that is filled; he gains a feat. He would also gain any bonus feat granted by class feature when he advances a level.
