Deluxe Gaming Products - Lessons from Ptolus

[Arashi Ravenblade]

there is no excuse for a book to be more than 50 bucks.

For 120 bucks i had better be transported to Ptolus.

 

[Infernal Teddy]

I wouldn't do deluxe things. But it really angers me that the things people are saying should be "deluxe" aren't the industry standard.
First off, indexes and glossaries ought to be mandatory, if a book doesn't have them it should be laughed off the RPG stage and subjected to a harsh slamming when being reviewed. Cogent, logical 1-2-3 organization should be mandatory, not deluxe. Put all the things you need to make a character IN ORDER. Basics, feats, skills, equipment etc, in order as needed. Not half assed, some here, some there, flip back and forth through a 200 page book without an index to make a character. Anything over 15 dollars should have full color or at the very least lavish illustrations. Not sketches from the guy in the copy room, art from a pro. That is the absolute bare minimum in organization, structure, and art that I will accept in any further purchases, anything less I don't buy it.

You're thinking of White Wolf, arn't you?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

there is no excuse for a book to be more than 50 bucks.

Heh. You obviously never had to buy science reference books...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, Ptolus is comparable to a large college textbook, both in size and price. Not a big shock to the system viewed that way. (And heck, most of us will get more use out of it than our old textbooks. )

I was thinking about starting a thread like this one this morning, because Ptolus is just too big. I love all the material, but the physical size of it makes it difficult to carry around and read -- holding it up for a long period of time gives you tired wrists, which really shouldn't be a consideration when trying to absorb all this info. I would prefer it if Ptolus had been split into two books, one of the city itself, and one a DM's guide. I would have also preferred two single-sided maps, since the back of the city map is spoiler-tastic.

That said, even smaller books need the bound-in fabric bookmarks. Lordy, I love these, as well as the indexing system, the excellent organization, the high standards of art and locator illustrations and maps. The binding has also worked great.

I hope future Adventure Path collections come in a multiple volume set, not in a bigger-than-Ptolus behemoth version.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Heh. You obviously never had to buy science reference books...

Or text books for school here in the US...

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Two separate settings which have nothing to do with one another or one that is described in such detail and has such a synergy with the core rules it blows the two WotC settings away? I take Ptolus anytime, man. Makes me wonder, honestly, if you actually read Ptolus, the whole thing. I've read a bit short of a half of the big book, and my mind is made up big time on your "comparison".

Agreed. I have Ebberon and the FR setting book and I'm only up to the organizations chapter in Ptolus and i've gotta say that production and organizational wise it blows both of those other books completely out of the water. People tend to scoff when I others say that you really get the 'feel' for Ptolus in this book, but that's exactly what you get along with the little details. Yeah, I reserved judgement until I got the book in my hands and STILL reserved it even after I started reading it and was still won over. This is one nice piece of work.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Same goes for Rappan Arthuk, the box has absolutely no added value, there are only three booklets in there, no lose maps, no lose handouts (and a certificate of authenticity, but i could have done without that if it would have made the product cheaper, like a $40 hardcover). If you do a boxedset fill her up with maps and handouts.

As an owner of the Hardcopy of this I TOTALLY agree with you about RA:RE though. This easily could have been a $45 - $50 hardcover. At least the Wilderlands box had all of the maps and stuff...

 

[hexgrid]

2. a box with more than one book - giant 500+ pages hc books may be nice to look at, but they're too unwieldy for practical use

I was worried about this for Ptolus, but it hasn't turned out to be an issue. I don't have any trouble carrying around the book to read on the bus or my lunch break, and looking things up in it is amazingly easy (easier than most books a fraction its size.)

 

[Cergorach]

I'm not complaining about the content/writing of Ptolus (and no, i haven't read it yet, it's still lying next to my bed, unread), the grading of the content/writing is a matter of taste. There are people that would rather be kicked in the groin then read anything written by monte, others wet themselves if Monte ever published his grocery lists from the last decade. Really crappy written products don't get cheaper because they are written crappy, so i don't expect finely written products to get more expensive because they were finely written, good writing sets them apart from the competition.

I am complaining about the actual production value of Ptolus.

To be honest i got dragged along with the hype a year ago and preordred the thing, i'm not really regretting my purchase, but i don't expect to buy something with these production values for $120 again any time soon (books get more expensive, inflation, temporary lack of willpower. etc.).

Things that add value to a product imho:
- Large poster maps: Because it's very difficult to make yourself, no one (sane) has such a large format printers or very few have access to one. Going to a copy shop to printout such a large map is extremely expensive.
- Hardcover: It's very difficult and laber intensive (not to mention not as nice) to convert your book from softcover to hardcover. Personally i think that any book larger then 128 pages should be Harcover.
- Sturdy bindig: Crappy binding will destroy your book in no time, rebinding a book your self takes, skill, effort and a lot of time.

Things that add little value to a product imho:
- Standard sized player handouts: Everyone has or has accessto a printer, even color these days.
- CD with content: Most people that have a computer have or have access to a cd burner. Most people that have a computer have or have acess to the internet. Bonus content can be downloaded and burnt by the user himself with very little costs and effort.

 

[MojoGM]

1. I don't think Ptolus is worth the $120 it costs when comparing it with other products (buy Eberron and Forgotten Realms for 2/3 of the price)

I don't really want to debate whether Ptolus was worth it, as everyone will have a different opinion on this depending on their own needs.

What I'm looking for is what WOULD make you pay $100+ for a gaming product. What would make something worth it to you?

Everybody's gotta have something, even if the expectations are ridiculously high.