Demographic Questions

[Roman]

I have several questions regarding pre-modern demographics, since I know people on these forums are knowledgeable in all sorts of esoteric knowledge.

1) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum achieved rate of literacy?
2) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of urban to rural population*?
3) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of non-peasants to peasants*?
4) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of nobility to normal people?
5) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum population density achieved*?

*Assuming self-sufficient regions (city states might have very different ratios, but don't really count as they 'outsource' their food production, lumber production and so on).

Thanks!

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Wow. That's a BIG ask there Roman.

Now I'm only an amateur historian (never formally studied it) but before an answer could even begin to be given you'd have to narrow down the questions. A lot.

There's so many variables. Like Where in the world? Precisely When in pre-modern times? What crops are we talking about? What about conditions like good or bad transport; epidemics; wars.

Even the literacy question is hard as the "official" method of measuring this is by comparing the number of people who sign there name in church registers as opposed to those who simply make there mark. Many people argue that the ability to sign ones name is not evidence of literacy.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit harsh. I'm not meaning to. I realise you've put a bit of thought into these questions your self already: the asterisked footnote about city states shows you realise that there's more to it than just on the surface.

Of them all 2 is the one you might get the easiest answer to. Even then it will vary from time to time, place to place.

I'd recommend trying to locate a professional historic database of articles. Just been trying google and it doesn't really cut it.

But you've provoked me to investigate further. If I find anything I'll let you know. (I'm going to try some universities, see if there's anything online.) But gotta remember that the data is still going to be rough estimates made by modern historians based on (usually) scanty primary sources.

Oh: I'd recommend the Cambridge Medieval History or the Cambridge Ancient History as good starts.

cheers,

 

[Odhanan]

What does "pre-modern" mean in your post? "Where" indeed? In Europe? Give us a space and time frame/sample date to simply base our answers on, please.

 

[Clavis]

I have several questions regarding pre-modern demographics, since I know people on these forums are knowledgeable in all sorts of esoteric knowledge.

1) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum achieved rate of literacy?
2) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of urban to rural population*?
3) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of non-peasants to peasants*?
4) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of nobility to normal people?
5) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum population density achieved*?

*Assuming self-sufficient regions (city states might have very different ratios, but don't really count as they 'outsource' their food production, lumber production and so on).

Thanks!

From what I remember of world history, I'd say:

1) As high as 50% (Shogunate Japan) to as low as 5% (Dark Ages Europe with basically only the clergy literate). Historically, few societies bothered to educate non-noble women at all.

2) Pre-modern societies were anywhere from 80-90% farmers, because pre-modern agriculture is very ineffeciant. That's one of the big demographic facts overlooked by people who make up fantasy maps. Create a city of 50,000, and you need about 400,000 farmers in nearby villages to support it. Imports can make up some of the food supply, but not all. There simply can't be any isolated cities without the farms to support them.

3) Once again, about 80-90% peasant farmers.

4) Japan apparently got as high as 10% Samurai at one point, but that was out of the norm. Figure 1-5% nobility for a European-type setting.

5) Figure about 50-100 people per total square mile, but population will be very concentrated in certain areas, with large areas practically wilderness. People will NOT be living in spread-out isolated homesteads. In cities and towns, density would be about 30,000 - 40,000 per square mile. If that seems like people would be living on top of each other with little to no privacy, that's just how it was. Town buildings would usually not have any space between them at all, and streets were as narrow as 5' wide.

Anyway that's about figures I can remember. There's an excellent discussion of medieval European demographics, with an eye to RPGs, at: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

 

[Roman]

Yes, I do realize the questions are broad in scope. This is partly intentional, though, as I am looking for the "best case" (or rather the the "highest case" to make it value neutral). As such, I don't want to restrict this to Europe, since I am not sure whether Europe had the highest rates/ratios in these questions in the pre-modern era.

To define pre-modern era is a bit difficult, but I will do a tribute to my American friends and say it ends in 1776 with the declaration of American independence, which coincides nicely with the advent of the industrial revolution, the exact date of which would be difficult to pin down.

 

[Roman]

From what I remember of world history, I'd say:

1) As high as 50% (Shogunate Japan) to as low as 5% (Dark Ages Europe with basically only the clergy literate). Historically, few societies bothered to educate non-noble women at all.

50% is actually pretty impressive. It may be higher than some of the poorest countries today.

2) Pre-modern societies were anywhere from 80-90% farmers, because pre-modern agriculture is very ineffeciant. That's one of the big demographic facts overlooked by people who make up fantasy maps. Create a city of 50,000, and you need about 400,000 farmers in nearby villages to support it. Imports can make up some of the food supply, but not all. There simply can't be any isolated cities without the farms to support them.

3) Once again, about 80-90% peasant farmers.

This is about what I would have expected to be the standard, but I am surprised some particularly fertile lands did not fare 'better'.

4) Japan apparently got as high as 10% Samurai at one point, but that was out of the norm. Figure 1-5% nobility for a European-type setting.

5) Figure about 50-100 people per total square mile, but population will be very concentrated in certain areas, with large areas practically wilderness. People will NOT be living in spread-out isolated homesteads. In cities and towns, density would be about 30,000 - 40,000 per square mile. If that seems like people would be living on top of each other with little to no privacy, that's just how it was. Town buildings would usually not have any space between them at all, and streets were as narrow as 5' wide.

Anyway that's about figures I can remember. There's an excellent discussion of medieval European demographics, with an eye to RPGs, at: http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

Good amount of info: thanks!

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Have come across the following:

http://www.rhs.ac.uk/bibl/bibwel.asp

It's only a bibliography but it can tell you what articles to look for.

Good luck.

EDIT: it's the Royal Historical Society in case the link doesn't work. And knowing my techno-illiteracy I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Minicol]

I have several questions regarding pre-modern demographics, since I know people on these forums are knowledgeable in all sorts of esoteric knowledge.

1) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum achieved rate of literacy?
2) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of urban to rural population*?
3) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of non-peasants to peasants*?
4) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum ratio of nobility to normal people?
5) During pre-modern times, what was the maximum population density achieved*?

*Assuming self-sufficient regions (city states might have very different ratios, but don't really count as they 'outsource' their food production, lumber production and so on).

Thanks!

I can only give you some inight on the first point :at the time of the Revolution, some French provinces had 80 %. Of course, some other were more like 15 % ... So it depended really on where you lived.
Interestingly enough, the capital was not the most literate

For two, I seem to remember reading 10%

For 5, I don't know, but I seem to remember that Imperial Rome was the highest ever, so you'd have to check this. Nice to note that it only worked because of the water system and imported food from the provinces.

 

[Dan Bell]

Roman,
Going by your topic, it seems like you a looking to ground your game in historical reality. If true, you might want to check out some of the free Harn downloads on www.lythia.com. Harn is fairly close to a historical version of a fantasy RPG.
Good luck.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Clavis's number match more or less the assumptions I use in my game. Another great demographics resource is this web-page: Demographics Made Easy.

It focused primarily on the population density portions of your questions, but its a great resource.