Demons and Darkvision

[mmu1]

Am I going blind, or do all Demons actually have neither Darkvision, nor any other ability to see in the dark?

Also, while we're on the subject of demons, does anyone else find Bebilith's ability to destroy armor and shields (even magical ones) with a simple grapple check with no save allowed a little fishy? It's a CR 9 creature with a grapple check of over 20, and gets a chance at making that grapple check every time it hits with a claw at +14...

I'm going to be running the CotSQ, and the party runs into these babies at the very beginning. Which means there's a very real threat of me being lynched if I completely destroy everyone's magical armor 2 or 3 hours into the first session of the campaign...

 

[shilsen]

The MM description (pg. 6) says that unless noted otherwise outsiders have 60 ft. darkvision, so that should be true for demons.

And yes, that ability is more than a little unusual, especially since you cannot normally target an opponent's armor and shield in 3e combat. Expect some gnashing of teeth and weeping in the outer darkness if your PCs lose their stuff to it

 

[mmu1]

Thanks, that makes more sense for the demons...

As for the armor-rending, I'm considering either nerfing it completely, ruling that the armor can be repaired with mending, or having it do 1 point of AC damage per strike, negated by a Fort save, with an option for mundane or magical repair. I can't think of anything less fun then wrecking half the party's equipment right at the beginning in a non-essential encounter, especially since I like handing out uniqe, customized equipment. (not necessarily more powerful, but usually with a history)

I was just wondering if there were any "common law" house rules for this particular case.

 

[Saeviomagy]

First up - attacking a shield is perfectly permissable. Attacking a worn or held object is also perfectly permissable (IIRC). It's called sundering, and there are rules for it. I'd suggest ignoring the bebilith's abilities and giving it sunder (and maybe improved sunder) instead. It'll be able to attack items of up to +3 enhancement and do 2d4+4 damage to them. Enough to mess up wooden items, but metal is probably fairly safe (it'll get slightly damaged but not smashed).

If you give it improved sunder (that one which allows double damage to objects), then wooden items are trashed for sure, and metal items will be damaged every time.

I'd estimate that a suit of armour probably has an inch worth of thickness for every AC point it provides (it's not actually an inch thick - you just use it to calculate the hp from the item hardness/hitpoints table).

 

[kreynolds]

Attacking a worn or held object is also perfectly permissable (IIRC). It's called sundering, and there are rules for it.

Sundering is merely a feat that allows you to better strike a weapon or shield. You can only use the Sunder feat when using the Strike a Weapon rules on page 136 of the PH. These rules also apply to shields. Striking Held, Carried, or Worn Objects works differently, and is covered on page 135 of the PH, to which the Sunder feat does not apply.

 

[hong]

I nerfed the various oozes' ability to destroy items for much the same reason. It's a bit silly to say that a grey ooze can make your sword and armour dissolve, while being chewed on by a dragon can't.

 

[Thresher]

Aye, as a once off it might be a good way of getting rid of a 'problem' magical item, but if it gets used as described your pretty soon going to find that the party simply cant continue, hence the adventure pretty quickly comes to a grinding halt of-
"Well, we'd like to keep going but we're down to harsh language and sharp sticks"

I dont know how people do up loot in their games but Im sort of thinking of my highest level character and they dont really own a lot, what they have is good, but its the type of gear that takes a long time to get and none of it can really be replaced on a whim.

 

[AuraSeer]

Am I going blind, or do all Demons actually have neither Darkvision, nor any other ability to see in the dark?

As noted above, outsiders have 60' darkvision unless noted otherwise. Just remember that darkvision does not work in magical darkness. When a demon uses its spell-like darkness ability, it cannot see in the area any more than a human could.

Devils, on the other hand, have the supernatural ability to see through even magical darkness. When a demon and a devil fight, if the demon is stupid enough to cast darkness anywhere, he's only hindering himself.

 

[Ferox4]

Re: Re: Demons and Darkvision

As noted above, outsiders have 60' darkvision unless noted otherwise. Just remember that darkvision does not work in magical darkness. When a demon uses its spell-like darkness ability, it cannot see in the area any more than a human could.

Devils, on the other hand, have the supernatural ability to see through even magical darkness. When a demon and a devil fight, if the demon is stupid enough to cast darkness anywhere, he's only hindering himself.

Excellent point, AuraSeer.

As far as the Bebilith goes, I also think that its ability to completely destroy armor with a single swat is a bit extreme. An encounter I ran last winter with a Bebilith caused me to come up with the following system (w/ help from many folks here on the boards). IMC I have broken down armor into "components."

For example: Bryan the Barbarian is wearing a regular Chain Shirt. I use the AC bonus confered by the armor (4 in this case) and that becomes the # of components the armor has. Secondly, each component has a hardeness rating (Metals are 10, Hide & Studded Leather are 7, Leather is 5 and Padded is 3). So each component of the Chain Shirt has a hardness of 10 and for simplicity each component has the same amount of HP/component as its hardness. Thusly, our Chain Shirt has 4 components, each with a hardness of 10 and 10HP/component. 40 HP total.

Components: These are simply a means of breaking the armor into different sections so that one good normal blow (not a critical) would not completely destroy a suit of armor. Components are directly correlated to the armor’s base bonus. Damage to multiple parts must come from multiple attacks. There is no "overflow" of damage to adjacent parts.

So our Chain shirt would still take a minimum of 4 separate attacks doing 40 hp or more before it was completely destroyed. Once a component is destroyed the base bonus of the armor decreases by 1. So if 1 component of that Chain Shirt is destroyed it now offers only +3 to your AC.

Also-

Add 1 point/ enhancement bonus to Hardness & HP
Add 1 component for Masterwork Armor

If the Chain Shirt were +2 it would have 5 components and each component would have a hardness of 12 and 12 HP/component.

Magical Armor: As per shields & weapons, the attacker cannot damage magical armor that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the armor being struck. Attacking armor provokes an attack of opportunity.

It seems involved, but it rarely comes up and it provides a way for you to frighten your PCs and wear them down without stripping them of their cherished possessions (at least not in one fell swoop).

IMC, any armor with at least 1 component remaining is repairable.

So there.......

 

[ruleslawyer]

IMC, I use the following rules applicable to the above issues:

1) Demons have the supernatural See in Darkness ability of baatezu, allowing them to see in normal and magical darkness just like devils can. Fine, it makes them a little deadlier, but they're comparatively over-CRed in general anyway.

2) Bebiliths have the following ability in place of the armor destruction ability:

Superior Sunder (Ex): When attacking an opponent's armor, shield, or any object held, worn, or carried by an opponent, a bebilith does not provoke an attack of opportunity. In addition, the bebilith inflicts double damage to any object struck.