Demons, devils and Celestials?

[JohnRTroy]

They weren't called angels at the time for the same reason that TSR didn't call demons, "demons." (A mostly faulty assumption that such a step--big in a gamer's mind, small in a non-gamer's mind--would appease the game's opponents.)

But even before the PC police took place, the so-called angelic ones--the devas, planetars, and solars, were not called angels in the 1st edition, and for that you'd have to ask the guy who wrote them, Gary Gygax.

Personally, I lament the fact that the "cosmetari" have lost their original purpose. I felt when Gary created them he made them fewer in number for a reason--the upper planes had fewer legions but they were much more powerful than the lower realms, and they were incorruptable. Heck, only 24 Solars were known to exist (if I remember correctly), so the population was meant to be small.

Now they have to share with all those extra guys 2e added--Eladrin, Guardianals, Archons, and you have all these references now to "fallen angels" in other products, even though the core 3rd Edition rules emphasizes that the outsiders almost never shift alignment, maybe 1 in 1,000,000.

Grump Grump Grump.

 

[JohnRTroy]

So by that definition, angel is but a rank on the 'ninefold celestial heirachy'.

This is only usually accepted in Catholicism though, not Christianity in general.

 

[JohnRTroy]

And finally, lets all be very, very thankful that no one in this thread has brought up the Gehreleths/Demodands that make their home on Carceri/Tarterus.

Worse, I'd love to see Dreggals, Dumalduns, Cacodemons, Cacodaemons, and Malevis, the stuff Gary might have placed into D&D if he was able.

Oh well, more stuff for Lejendary Adventure, I hope. ;-)

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Now the reason why any outsider of alignment would be called angels on my terms is this.

There are an infinite amount of worlds, with many different cultures and societies. And on a large handful of them, the people of those worlds believe what is commonly called devils on other worlds are their angels. Their angels may be cruel and harsh, but they are the holy representatives of their ideals. And yes the society I'm describing is indeed a lawful evil one. But from their point of view, what the devils represent is what's holy and moral to them.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

One point you're missing about 2e cosmology, was that even if there were more varieties of celestials, that being Guardinals, Eladrins and Asuras (Archons were already in 1e to my knowledge).

They were still very much outnumbered by the sheer amount of fiends. Out of the three big fiendish races, they had far more varieties than their celestial counterparts, and their physical numbers far outnumbered celestials as well.

The celestials were described as once uniting to war against the fiends. The fiends all united against the celestials and completely slaughtered them. The celestials were almost driven to extinction by the combined forces of all the fiends.

Which is why in 2e, they never directly confronted the fiends. The celestials fought fiends by defending the upper planes and some mortals against them, launching guerilla attacks against fiends, and keeping the fiends fighting amongst themselves.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

"Angel" is Judeo-Christian"

The reason I never included angel as a "monster" in the AD&D game is noted in the header. It is a term confined to the Judeo-Christian religions, and those belief systems do not have any part in the game setting. For the same general reason, no use of the words "church" or "cathedral" was made. They are inappropriate, as they pertain to Christian religious places.

Demon and devil are generic in their application. They are terms used in many religions and mythologies.

Their substitutes were those spirit creatures drawn from Theosophy, the solar and others, as they had no specific religious connotation outside spiritualism.

It seems to me that to include angels is to bring Judeo-Christianity into the fantasy milieu, but different strokes and all that.

Happy New Year,
Gary

 

[I'm A Banana]

Also, the angel heirarchy is quite a bit more complex in the lore than you may think, much of it having to do with nothing in the Bible spelling out an exact heirarchy. Turns out most of the existant ideas either come from Psedo-Dionysus, or Dante and Augustine....and there's probably more variations on the theme...

Straight Dope did a little something about the Angelic Heirarchy recently...givin' me idears...

 

[JohnRTroy]

Re: "Angel" is Judeo-Christian"

For the same general reason, no use of the words "church" or "cathedral" was made. They are inappropriate, as they pertain to Christian religious places.

I know angels were absent, but the Church of Saint Cuthbert--that word referring to the building itself--existed in the Village of Homlet module.

Sorry, had to say it though. But I will pay for it. I will probably be condemmed to expurgatory for 1,111 years

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Re: Re: "Angel" is Judeo-Christian"

I know angels were absent, but the Church of Saint Cuthbert--that word referring to the building itself--existed in the Village of Homlet module.

Sorry, had to say it though. But I will pay for it. I will probably be condemmed to expurgatory for 1,111 years

Oh Brother...

Of course St. (Sanctified in Christ) Cuthbert is a joke deity, so he would have a church. Pholtus is also a spoof, the leader of the "Church of the Blinding Light." ("O blindiing light, O light that blinds, I can not see, look out for me.")

Now get thee to Expurgatory and suffereth your PUNishment.

Happy New Year,
Gary

 

[s/LaSH]

This is only usually accepted in Catholicism though, not Christianity in general.

True, true. Even as a Catholic myself, I wouldn't say those heirachies are guaranteed accurate; you get a lot of guesswork codified as dogma over two thousand years. It is one possible structure, however, and someone might want to make use of it.

Of course, the futility of trying to make sense of the system now that it's been explained by the Creator himself isn't lost on me... I just run a medieval European campaign and this thread jogged me into getting some background data for future use. My (OED) point about 'angel' being useful for any superhuman spirit stands, but it's generally only useful if you're running a heavily metaphysical campaign, I'd guess.