Demonweb - preview 5 is up

[Peter Lee]

So are the previews the mock-ups, or the actual production models? I doubt those are your initial pieces of work as there seem to be some mold lines showing, so the problem is probably in the mass production and getting the sculpts to come out defined, and enough color to show something more than a quarter machine toy man.

These are actual production models. Note that I'm not actually painting any of the paint masters at this time, but I am working with the art director on what to tell the painter.

There are definitely techniques that just can't be economically done with the production models. The inside cloak on the Strahd trophy, for example, is painted with around 9 shades of red all blended together; not something remotely possible on a production figure.

 

[Shazman]

With every new set, people complain about the ever-decreasing quality, and argue that they need to step up the quality if they're going to be successful. And yet, they keep making more sets, implying that the previous set was a success. If they weren't making money on these minis, they would stop making them.

I for one don't see any problems with the cyclops. The mezzoloth is fine - not great, but nothing to complain about.

I do intend to agree with that. IMHO, the quality of the minis peaked with Aberrations and has steadily declined over the years. That's why I just pick a few singles from each set I like that aren't ridiculously overpriced and buy them online. The number of minis I like enough to buy as singles has been declining sharply in the last few years.

 

[Shazman]

I do think this set is better painted than the previous two, but I am trying to make the next one as good as I can.

What sort of monster figures catch your eye? If you could create your own miniatures, what would you pick?

(PC ideas are also welcome, but realize that I'm from 18 months in the future. Time travel's a pain.)



That would be me. Which ones would you have preferred that I preview?

You really need to have all of the basic races with different types of equipment so they can cover at least most of the basic race\class combos from the PHB. Do not make every single dragonborn or tiefling have to be a rare or uncommon. Please make at least some minis sutiable for PC's to be commons so they are not so overpriced. As far as monsters go, just give us a good mix of monsters that are commonly used in adventures. Every set should have a good mix of (non-rare) PC types, humanoids, giants, undead, animals, a dragon or two, plus maybe a few aberrations and elementals. I also suggest that you periodically look at the recent sets, and see what holes need to be filled. Also stop with the repeats (the drow with sword and shield from Deserts of Desolation and from Demonweb look almost identical) and get a consistant look for your giants, hobgoblins, trolls, ogres, and bugbears. Everytime a new giant, ogre, bugbear, etc. comes out, it looks like it's a completely different species from the previous one. Differentiate them with different equipment and poses, instead of a complete reinvisioning of what they look like with each set. Finally, please get some better sculpts and paintjobs. Take a look at the bladebearer hobgoblin and kobold champion from Aberrations and the bugbear footpad from giants of legend and use them as the bar should be trying to reach with most of you minis. Sorry about the length of this post, but I have stated pretty thoroughly what I want as a customer from DDM.

 

[justanobody]

These are actual production models. Note that I'm not actually painting any of the paint masters at this time, but I am working with the art director on what to tell the painter.

There are definitely techniques that just can't be economically done with the production models. The inside cloak on the Strahd trophy, for example, is painted with around 9 shades of red all blended together; not something remotely possible on a production figure.

Then it would be very interesting and telling if you were to paint a master, and describe to the art director what the colors should looks like (or an artist to draw it) and see what is coming through.

I think something that may help loads would just be some kind of wash after painting of the entire minis to give them that depth of shadow that cannot be done like that cloak.

I mean the actual Strahd has no face...no eyes no anything. This day and age you cannot forget the eyes, and if you only have time to do a quick light (strength not color) wash to get some shading it will go a long ways on these things.

I doubt they could dip the minis in China and churn them out quick enough, but it might be another idea.

So whatever can give them a little more life so the details aren't loss and the minis don't look 2D.

You know what I mean and will maybe be able to figure something out.

 

[doppelganger]

I do think this set is better painted than the previous two, but I am trying to make the next one as good as I can.

What sort of monster figures catch your eye? If you could create your own miniatures, what would you pick?

(PC ideas are also welcome, but realize that I'm from 18 months in the future. Time travel's a pain.)

Now that the Adventurer's Vault is out and we know that it is still in the D&D world (and that it occupties 2 squares by 2 squares and is therefore size Large), I would love to see an Apparatus of Kwalish mini. It's iconic to old school D&D, it's interesting in wargames and it's steampunk without being a robot/Warforged.

 

[Sammael]

I think something that may help loads would just be some kind of wash after painting of the entire minis to give them that depth of shadow that cannot be done like that cloak.

They tried to use more wash a few sets ago (from Underdark until War of the Dragon Queen or thereabout). The results were... disastrous. Minis ended up sooty-looking, almost black, with all detail lost (which the wash was supposed to enhance). You couldn't find a decent skin tone in those sets if your life depended on it. While I agree that a bit more wash (of appropriate color) would be nice, I just don't think it's viable in this line.

BTW, those who are not avid collectors of DDM may not see it, but this upcoming set (Demonweb) is a marked improvement over the past two or three sets in terms of sculpts, mini selection, and paint jobs. I have high hopes for the next set - Feywild.

 

[avin]

BTW, those who are not avid collectors of DDM may not see it, but this upcoming set (Demonweb) is a marked improvement over the past two or three sets in terms of sculpts, mini selection, and paint jobs. I have high hopes for the next set - Feywild.

Sup Sammael? Long time since Interplay/Black Isle boards...

Anyway, I hope Feywild gets better, Bugbear Strangler and that fat demon makes me want to cry... (granted this pictures are not too good, must see on my hands)

¡ñ¡£__Ù׊¨“cüD?-Íæ¾ß/¶¯Âþ/Ä£ÐÍ/¿¨Í¨ - ÌÔ±¦Íø

 

[El Mahdi]

I do think this set is better painted than the previous two, but I am trying to make the next one as good as I can.

I haven’t checked back on this thread for a while, so I apologize for not replying to your post sooner.

It does sound like you're taking a very active role in trying to make D&D minis as good as they can be. Personally, I sincerely appreciate you seeking out serious feedback here on ENWorld. The quality of future sets can't help but improve with this approach.

If I was able to see the minis in real life (instead of just a photo) I might be able to see what you see in the set. But from the previews and the ddmspoilers site, I really don’t see much of a difference in overall quality between this set and previous sets (I’ll grant though that some of the ddmspoilers pics aren’t the best, and may not even be the actual miniatures you guys are releasing).

It seems as if either the mini sculpts are lacking detail and definition from the start, or the paint that’s being used or the way it’s applied is too thick, causing a lot of detail to be de-emphasized. I don’t know how these are manufactured, and I really don’t know much about minis manufacturing anyways, but I would think plastic should be able to get as good as, or even better definition than metal minis. However, I tend to lean towards the fault being in the original sculpts. Even Reaper has badly sculpted minis with poor definition, but it seems to be common to certain sculptors and uncommon to other sculptors (Reaper lists the sculptors name with each mini).

What sort of monster figures catch your eye? If you could create your own miniatures, what would you pick?

(PC ideas are also welcome, but realize that I'm from 18 months in the future. Time travel's a pain.)

The monster minis that catch my eye usually have some or all of the following factors:
-A monster I’ve never seen as a mini before.
-A really good, realistic sculpt that shows in a glance exactly the purpose or theme of the figure, preferably in a pose or condition the PC’s would find it in (i.e. attacking), but without giving an impression of being “cartoonish”.
-Can be modified relatively easy - no sale features: limbs that are molded into the main mass of the mini (like an arm that's molded to the body), weapons that are molded to the forearm, etc.
-And most importantly, good sculpt definition, realism, (and in pre-painted minis) good painted highlights. If they aren’t good, the mini is a wash for me.

For PC minis:
-Race/class combos and weapon selections I haven’t seen in a mini before (although I do understand you need to hit the most common combos for best ability to sell).
-Same as monsters, sculpt definition, realism, and well painted highlights.

For both:
-Unique figures for specific Adventure Modules. (For example, I always wanted minis for The Labrynth of Madness adventure, like the Yuan-Ti Titan.)

This is the list of ones I would want made that I posted in another thread (I believe you were a part of the thread, but there’s so many like threads on here I know you can’t catch every thread and every post).

-Molydeus*
-Avariel (male and female)
-Cooshee Dog (Forgotten Realms)
-Shade (like the one in the 4E & 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guides)
-Foo Dog/Lion/Horse (like the one the samurai is riding on the original Oriental Adventures cover)
-Rakastas and Lupins, and maybe even Tortles (from Mystara/Red Steel)
-Arcane (from Spelljammer but I use them in my FR games)

Also, more minis that can be used as mounts (without including riding figures on them), and I’ll also second some other posters suggestions to make humanoid figures (especially PC useable figures) in a sculpt that can be modified to sit on a mount without too much work (such as having to completely resculpt with green from the waist down). There have been a few minis throughout the sets that could be used as mounts – such as the Rage Drake and Nightmare in Desert of Desolation and the Gorgon in Unhallowed, and there was an unmounted Horse, although it had no saddle or barding, but some more would be good.

*I believe a Molydeus was done by Ral Partha about a decade ago, but I'm pretty sure the others have never been made as minis.

That would be me.

Which ones would you have preferred that I preview?

Apparently you haven't learned yet to not ask for opinions from people on ENWord. Anyways, here goes. Nothing personal. This is my 100% personally subjective review of the set, so far:

DDM previews:

Spellbound Drow Warrior: good (although the preview picture is small and hard to see detail).

Shadowflayer: okay sculpt but rudimentary, uninspiring paint job with no highlights.

Solamith: sculpt and paint job are horrible, no highlighting and the color choices and sculpt make it look more like a childs toy (the “Evil Fisher Price” collection - quote by FranktheDM).

Iron Dragon Prowler: good, decent sculpt, okay paint but there is a lack of highlights.

Deathcap: good (well, it’s just a mushroom, not a whole lot of room for variation, so decent sculpt and paint - although it does look a bit cartoonish, but perhaps it wouldn't sell as good if it was more realistically portrayed).

Spiretop Drake: terrible, looks like an emaciated cat with wings and socks on it’s paws. Sculpt has a serious lack of definition, and the paint job looks like only three colors were used, including the black in the mouth and the red for the eyes.

Shardsoul Slayer: bad, decent paint but the sculpt looks like it’s from some 1970’s Sci-Fi minis collection.

Web Golem: fair, okay paint (of course it’s just supposed to be web, so doesn’t need a whole lot of color variation), but the sculpt looks like a bad guy from a Scooby Doo cartoon. The proportions make it look like a cartoon figure.

Sharn Redcloak: good, decent sculpt and not a whole lot of highlights on the paint but it’s okay, especially for a common.

Bugbear Warrior: good, sculpt is a little cartoonish but paint has decent highlights on the fur, however there’s a lack of highlights on the armor (either to make it look good and elite, or dirty and cheap).

Skull Lord: very good sculpt and decent paint job (but could use highlights on the robe).

Mezzodemon: absolutely the worst, the sculpt looks squashed and undefined compared to the lithe, crouched insectile look of the MM picture. The paint has no highlights but wouldn’t help anyways, due to the horrible sculpt.

Cyclops Hewer: okay sculpt but the paint job is completely lacking in highlights and the color choice for the skin reminds me of a childrens toy or the color of old 1970’s Tupperware.


From Previews September/October and Beyond

Stirge Drone: although small and hard to see, what I can see looks horrible. The sculpt lacks enough definition to really see what it is, other than a vague shaped winged creature, and the paint looks like Dukes of Hazard orange with hard to distinguish brown for highlights (the highlights seem to be attempting to add in the detail lacking in the sculpt itself, and, overall the sculpt doesn’t look any better than the very amateur old edition picture that was used as an example – good for nostalgia but not to base a mini on).

Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut: Good sculpt and decent paint (I would always prefer more highlights but this isn’t bad). Will make a very good PC.

Human Bandit: very good sculpt with excellent definition and a good paint job. It’s kind of a niche sculpt as far as using it as a PC (figure isn’t in a “combat” pose and doesn’t seem to be showing any weapons – which is okay for a Rogue when you think about it a bit), but it’s very well done.

Kuyutha, Exarch of Bahamut: good sculpt with good definition, paint of the main body is good, however, the paint color of the wings don’t match the skin tone of the body. Whatever the name of that color is (as with the color of the Strige Drone), get rid of it and never use it again. It looks like some bad mix of Dukes of Hazzard orange and brown for highlights. On another note, as good as the sculpt is, most DM’s will never let a player have a PC with wings, making this almost useless as a PC.

These are the only ones I’ve seen on WoTC as previews, if there are others I missed them (but I expect this is at least a majority of the previews).


From the ddmspoilers.com site, any one of the following would have been better as previews than the ones above (I don’t know where they get the spoiler pics, unless these will eventually be previews at WoTC also).

Rakshasa Assassin (from what I can see it looks really good)
Vicious Bearded Devil (much better than the Mezzodemon – in fact planes of existence better)
Drow Demonbinder (looks good, although it seems to be suffering from the same lack of highlights in the painting as most of the others – also from the pic on ddmspoilers, it looks like it probably will be a preview mini – or already was and I missed it).
Draegloth Favored One (looks good, and better than most of the previews, except what’s up with the big out of proportion cartoon hands on the extra arms the upper ones).
Thoon Hulk (looks really good, although it could use some better highlights also - on the "lower robe")
Black Dragon Lurker (this is awesome, however, I think I understand why this one wasn't picked to preview - 1. already have a black dragon in another set, and 2. already previewed a dragon for this set)
Yuan-Ti Malison Incanter (also awesome, why not preview this)
Ogre Pulverizer (okay sculpt, good paint with highlights)
Stormrage Blue Dragon (another absolutely awesome fig)
Autumn Wind Ranger (exceptional sculpt and paint and perfect PC material, this would have made an awesome lead-off hitter for the previews)
Blood Sladd (not supergood but still better than most of the previews)
Brutal Ogre Warhulk (good sculpt and decent paint – not the best of the set but still vastly better than the Cyclops Hewer)
Curse Slaad (also not supergood but still better than most of the previews)
Kruthik Hive Lord (good sculpt and definition and good paint, although it’s not hard to paint a metallic look – it’s better than most of the previews even though I don’t like it personally, it’s too cartoonish for me – also looks a little too much like a Dreamblade mini for me, even though some of those are pretty useable as aberations or other unique monsters in a D&D game)
Girallon – pretty good, at least better than the majority of the previews


Also bad (as bad or worse than the previews):
Concord Illithid – good call on not previewing this. Even worse than the Shadowflayer: horrible definition - no face, just tentacles (unless it’s supposed to be this way, but I don't like it).
Ettin Spirit-Talker – okay sculpt and paint, but like the Cyclops Hewer, suffers from a lack of highlights for the skin. Also, please stop making figures where hand held objects (weapons, bones, etc.) are “molded” to the arm. This makes them more difficult to modify (add different weapons, shield, objects, etc.). Molded on objects means the arm must be carved and repainted in order to add different items.
Minotaur Warrior – a good sculpt but lacks the painted highlights and definition of the fur that the Bugbear Warrior has.
Hobgoblin Warcaster – from what I can see of it, the sculpt definition seems lacking, the hands are completely out of proportion to the mini, and that damned orange-ish paint again. The mini looks like it’s wearing a prison jumpsuit (could probably paint DOC on the back and use it for a D20 Modern game as an escaped convict). *Department of Corrections
Crazed Kuo-Toa – the sculpt looks like a 1st edition MM picture or a 30 year old Ral Partha mini. Why not update it for a more realistic and deadly look look like the Kuo-Toa on the cover of Dungeon 158. This mini looks more like prey than predator. Instead of looking "Crazed", this mini looks "Stoned".
Kruthik Adult - pretty much the same comments as the Kruthik Hive Lord, except personally, I really don’t like this sculpt.

Also from the DDMspoilers site but don’t have good enough photos for commenting:
Halfling Archer
Warforged Battle Captain
Quickling Runner (can see better than the others but still not good enough for a fair critique, although at first blush it doesn’t look very impressive to me)

Overall, I’d give the set as revealed so far (on DDM spoilers) an average rating of 3 stars (2.7 to be exact), and the ones only shown in WoTC previews, an average rating of 2 stars.

. . .

realize that I'm from 18 months in the future. Time travel's a pain.

Peter Lee, Master Time Traveller. Sweet!


Pssst. While you're there in the Future, how about some samples from PHB2 and some info on PHB3.

 

[wedgeski]

There's just no nice way to say it, these are horribly amateur in sculpt and paint quality. In RPG's WoTC is the 800 lb. gorilla, but they have never been the industry leader in minis. With other companies out there like Reaper minis and the new Ral Partha minis, WoTC better get there together if they want to keep people interested in their minis line.

What the--? These are fine, on par with most sets released in the past couple of years. People ARE interested in the mini's line. WotC clearly DO have their :eep:'s together with this line.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Look, this argument has been done over and over again, but I just had to say you can't compare metal versus plastic miniatures. And you'll never be able to compare mass-produced, pre-painted plastic miniatures with hand crafted and hand-painted metal miniatures.

I used to be a huge metal mini collector and painter [insert joke about having the "wall of lead" or some joke about the wife that resents the fact that she has no space to put her clothes because of the two closets filled with half painted metal miniatures] for many years. I even went so far as to work for a small metal miniature company to learn the ins and outs of the industry. I got to meet and work with some of the great sculptors and painters in the industry, and I was at the time, a "metal miniature" snob. If it wasn't metal and hand painted, it was crap!

But, life goes on and responsibilities pile up, and I still love to DM with minis- but I no longer have the time to paint up all of my miniatures I need. I also have this annoying habit of needing the exact (or close to as exact as possible) miniature for every encounter. WOTCs DDM line filled that need. Are the minis the best sculpts, or the highest quality paint job? No, but they fill in fine for most encounters, and the success they have had with the line has put plenty of variety out there to collect from. And I still think a fully painted miniature (be it plastic or metal) looks better than a bare metal miniature any day.

I'll also say that I have half the stress of playing with plastic miniatures than I do when my players handle/mishandle my lovingly painted metal miniatures which are much more prone to breaking/chipping in travel or during play.

(Emphasis mine) This is probably my #1 reason I like plastic pre painted over hand painted metals. And I have hundreds of metals (and dozens of them are painted! ). I love the fact that i can literally toss miniature monsters/npcs/pcs onto the table and get a fight going in under 20 seconds without having to worry about Bob's fighter's spiked chain breaking (again) or the bows on all of my goblin archers being bent over (again).

I do love the metal painting part of the hobby (or at least I did) but expediency and durability count for far more than just looks.