D&D General Denying Players Rolls for Attacks, Damage, Saves, Etc

[Reynard]

A comment in another thread got me thinking and I am curious:

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill? If so, under what circumstances? if not, how do you deal with certain corner cases? We discuss how GMs call for ability checks/skill rolls or not, and how that's is just part of the way the GM's adjudication works in play. Do you think the same principle applies to the other kinds of rolls made?

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens? Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have? Do you have the player roll damage (as a crit or not)? Do you force the player to roll to hit? What happens if the tables are turned and the PC is the target?

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage? What if the tables were turned?

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

For ability checks, the guideline is to follow the fiction and determine whether there is uncertainty in the outcome. I so, a roll (of some sort) is called for. Does this extend to attack, damage and saving throw rolls?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill?

Yes to both questions. I regularly do that at my tables, and it works fine.

If so, under what circumstances? if not, how do you deal with certain corner cases?

Whenever you feel a roll isn't necessary. If the player asks to shoot the moon with their pistol, they automatically fail without needing to make a roll. If the level 20 Fighter is attacking a goblin with single-digit hit points, you might as well just say they automatically kill them if they hit.

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens? Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have? Do you have the player roll damage (as a crit or not)? Do you force the player to roll to hit? What happens if the tables are turned and the PC is the target?

It depends on the stat block and how much damage the PC does. If they're just a normal humanoid, then they're probably going to die instantly. If they're a commoner, I wouldn't even ask the Assassin to roll for damage (and maybe not roll to hit) because they're absolutely going to kill them immediately. However, if they're an Archmage or something else that has enough HP to survive the maximum damage the PC can do, I still have them roll and explain it as the NPC having some way to protect against the action the PC is attempting. If the tables are turned, I do the same thing, just reversed.

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage? What if the tables were turned?

The PC is effectively trying to jump away from an exploding grenade. That happens all the time in action movies, so I'd run it RAW.

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

The PC would be restrained, so I'd have them make the attack, but at advantage. Same if the opposite were to happen.

 

[DND_Reborn]

PC Rogue Assassin: The target is unconscious (sleeping), so the PC's attack roll has advantage and if it hits is automatically a critical hit. That is the system so that is how I run it.

Fireball in 10' chamber: DEX save as normal. A DEX save isn't just moving behind something, but also is the capability to duck, shield your face (an area commonly exposed), etc. That is the system so that is how I run it.

Manacled PC: The PC is restrained, so the attack against the PC has advantage and any attack the PC makes (kicking maybe?) has disadvantage. That is the system so that is how I run it.

For ability checks, the guideline is to follow the fiction and determine whether there is uncertainty in the outcome. I so, a roll (of some sort) is called for. Does this extend to attack, damage and saving throw rolls?

All those situations have uncertain outcomes:

The sleeping target might roll over just as the Assassin strikes, foiling his attack.

The DEX save PC drops and covers up, lessening the damage from the spell because they reacted in time.

The manacled PC turns as their captor strikes with the dagger, so it sheers off and hits the stone behind.

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill?

No.

 

[Unwise]

I only roll when:
A) the result is in doubt
B) It will build some dramatic tension
C) It's more fun/funny that way

If somebody sneaks up on a sleeping person and wants to slit their throat, is the result in doubt? You could argue that for dramatic tension the stealth might be in doubt, so they roll for that. If they succeed at that, is the result of the attack (in-world, non-mechanically) in doubt?
In the case of a PC getting their throat slit without a roll, point C above probably applies. It is more fun to roll the damage so the player feels some agency and the PC has a chance to live.

As for the example with the fireball. The fact that you cannot escape the fireball is exactly what the half-damage effect already represents mechanically. The best you can do is tuck into a ball behind your shield or backpack, or hit the deck for a moment (dex save), either way you are getting hurt.

The manacled person example, the result is not in doubt, whether it takes one or two attempts to stab the person, the person is getting stabbed. There seems little point in rolling due to doubt. For dramatic tension though, it might be necessary.

• If it was an PC trying to stab a normal NPC, there is no tension, so it just happens.
• If it was a PC trying to stab Black Widow or James Bond, then they roll, since the NPC might pull off some dramatic kick-necksnap thing and escape.
• If an NPC is trying to stab a PC, that will always be dramatically important, even if the result should not be in doubt, so I would roll.

 

[Charlaquin]

For ability checks, the guideline is to follow the fiction and determine whether there is uncertainty in the outcome. I so, a roll (of some sort) is called for. Does this extend to attack, damage and saving throw rolls?

Short answer: yes with attacks, not really with saves.

In your assassin example, I would not call for a check; I don’t see a reasonable possibility of failure, so I would simply narrate the successful results. If it was an NPC assassin trying to slit a sleeping PC’s throat, presumably a lot of things must have gone poorly for the PC already in order for the NPC to have gotten into this position. I might ask the player to make a save of some kind, just to give them one last chance to wake up just in the nick of time.

See, the thing about saving throws is, they don’t really follow the normal pattern of DM describes environment, player describes action, DM determines results potentially relying on a die roll to resolve uncertainty, DM narrates results. I mean, sometimes they kind of do; if the player’s action triggers a trap or similar hazard, the DM might call for a saving throw to resolve the uncertainty in that action. But generally speaking, saves aren’t voluntary actions on the character’s part. They’re automatic, like a reflex. And at least as often as not, they’re called for by some specific bit of rules text, rather than the DM’s discretion. You roll a Dex save for fireball not because the DM determined that some action you performed had an uncertain outcome, but rather because the rules text for the fireball spell instructs you to do so. Which means, even in the featureless 10’ by 10’ room, you still get your Dex save against fireball because that’s just part of how the spell works.

 

[the Jester]

The rules cover everything in the OP pretty clearly. I use the rules. As DND_Reborn posted:

PC Rogue Assassin: The target is unconscious (sleeping), so the PC's attack roll has advantage and if it hits is automatically a critical hit. That is the system so that is how I run it.

Fireball in 10' chamber: DEX save as normal. A DEX save isn't just moving behind something, but also is the capability to duck, shield your face (an area commonly exposed), etc. That is the system so that is how I run it.

Manacled PC: The PC is restrained, so the attack against the PC has advantage and any attack the PC makes (kicking maybe?) has disadvantage. That is the system so that is how I run it.

 

[overgeeked]

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill?

Absolutely.

If so, under what circumstances?

Extremely limited cases. I allow things like sneak up and knockout and killing in sleep. If someone's helpless, tied up, unconscious, etc there's literally no way they can resist so things like AC, saves, and hit points are irrelevant. This cuts both ways, of course. Though I've never actually used it against PCs. But the threat of it is usually enough to put the idea of keeping watch and using that tactic against NPCs into the players' heads. So mission accomplished.

We discuss how GMs call for ability checks/skill rolls or not, and how that's is just part of the way the GM's adjudication works in play. Do you think the same principle applies to the other kinds of rolls made?

If there's nothing at stake and no chance of failure, there's no reason to roll.

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens? Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have?

Yes.

Do you have the player roll damage (as a crit or not)? Do you force the player to roll to hit?

Nope.

What happens if the tables are turned and the PC is the target?

The PC dies.

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage?

Depends on how you read the DEX save. I think of it as rolling with the punch or minimizing damage, so generally yes, they'd still get a roll. But I'm an old school referee and I still use things like expanding fireballs and bouncing lighting bolts. So in those exact, utterly white room theorycrafting circumstances, nope. Just toast 'em. An explosion massive enough to fill a 30ft radius contained in a 10ft room? Whoever's in there is dead.

What if the tables were turned?

A PC in that room? Still crispy.

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

Roll to hit, yes. Likely with advantage. The PC is restrained but not helpless. I'm imagining having some slack in those chains so the PC can move around a bit. Hence the roll. But their movement is limited. Hence the advantage.

Tables turned? Whatever's good for the goose is good for the gander. The PCs don't have immunity from the consequences of their actions nor script immunity. If a PC dies, the PC dies. The player should already have a back up character ready to go and I'll introduce them as soon as possible.

For ability checks, the guideline is to follow the fiction and determine whether there is uncertainty in the outcome. I so, a roll (of some sort) is called for. Does this extend to attack, damage and saving throw rolls?

Basically, yes. If there's nothing at stake and no chance of failure, there's no reason to roll.

 

[payn]

There was a time where I would, as GM, stick to what was hardcoded in my mind. Like the fireball example, I might reason that there is no space for the evasion or save to happen or whatever. Although, I might have forced the coup de grace and/or encounter rules on stabbing a defenseless PC/NPC. I played it by feel.

Then, as a player I was in a group with an old schooler (older than me!). This guy was always coming up with stuff to force on the PCs. Got feared? "Yeap, that PC runs straight into a raging river which will likely kill them by drowning...no exceptions...I said no exceptions!" Got grappled? "Oh yeah you toss your weapon at least 30 ft during the grapple. Yes, that is correct over the edge of the bridge and into the 1000 ft ravine...no exceptions!" He always had the absolute worst interpretation of the rules and he wasnt even the GM. Yes, he was saying these things from the player seat to the GM running the game...

I realized how unfun it was to play with this guy. His interpretations always screwed the PCs hard (well he always clammed up when it was his turn of course). It occurred to me that its better to stretch my imagination a little and let the PCs be awesome and have fun than to hardcode reality into the game.

As for attacks, damage, and saving throws, what is the context? Why is a PC tied up and defenseless? Why is an NPC stabbing them? Sadistically hurting a character? Thats not likely something I'm gonna put in my games. Now, there might be an elaborate encounter where the PCs have to stop a madman from hurting their companion. Thats gonna be a series of checks and such that gives everyone a chance. As much as I love the PCs being awesome, they can still fail and face consequences and death. Though, they will always get a fair chance.

So, my answer hasnt really changed over the years, I still do it by feel. Though my adjudication of the rules and fiction scale has slid over into a slightly more lenient space that encourages better fiction and fun. Obviously, subjective and going to be different at different tables.

 

[Maxperson]

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill? If so, under what circumstances? if not, how do you deal with certain corner cases? We discuss how GMs call for ability checks/skill rolls or not, and how that's is just part of the way the GM's adjudication works in play. Do you think the same principle applies to the other kinds of rolls made?

If someone is tied up and helpless and a player announces that his PC is going to kill that person, there's no roll to hit or damage. The bound person just dies.

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens? Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have? Do you have the player roll damage (as a crit or not)? Do you force the player to roll to hit? What happens if the tables are turned and the PC is the target?

The PC rolls per the assassination rules. The reason is that the sleeping person could hear what is happening and wake just prior to the attack and not be completely helpless, just royally screwed. The bound guy above has no such way out.

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage? What if the tables were turned?

Luck and divine grace are part of hit points. Maybe he just got lucky and didn't get burned as badly. I'd still give him a save. I don't give helpless people saves, though. That bound guy in the chair takes full fire damage. And yes, I know that technically he could get lucky or divine grace, but I view being helpless as basically giving up your hit points.

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

For that I'd have him roll to hit with advantage, and if he hit it would be a crit. If he missed it would be a hit. The guy can wiggle a lot on those chains, so a clean kill or crit is not guaranteed, but still pretty easy.

 

[FrogReaver]

My favorite recent example is rule how a fireball works underwater.