Dependency on Character Creation Apps?

Retreater

Legend
What Payn says here. I mean, I get it to some degree; this is a problem to one extent or another with almost all exception based game designs, but its part of the price of doing business.
I do understand this. 4e and PF2 seem to have every action include a paragraph of text just to describe the effects...

For example, this 1st level Fighter attack power...
"1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square to a square adjacent to you. You grab the target, and until the grab ends, it takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Dexterity modifier. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn."

Like, who's going to remember that (and all the other powers you can use).

Maybe I just need to simplify my games, especially in-person ones.
 

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payn

I don't believe in the no-win scenario
I do understand this. 4e and PF2 seem to have every action include a paragraph of text just to describe the effects...

For example, this 1st level Fighter attack power...
"1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square to a square adjacent to you. You grab the target, and until the grab ends, it takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Dexterity modifier. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn."

Like, who's going to remember that (and all the other powers you can use).

Maybe I just need to simplify my games, especially in-person ones.
Normally, id say thats not difficult to remember at all, but you did mention a player got to level 5 some how without knowing what a daily is so...
 

Retreater

Legend
Normally, id say thats not difficult to remember at all, but you did mention a player got to level 5 some how without knowing what a daily is so...
I don't think there is a single person in my gaming group who would remember the details of that one attack, let alone all the other powers on their sheet (even at 5th level). Luckily, it's all printed out for convenience.

However, that might be part of the problem. So, I don't remember my wife's phone number. She hasn't changed it in the 7 years we've been together. When I need to call her, I look her up in my Contacts. I don't remember her number because I've never needed to remember her number.

Maybe that's part of what's going on?
 

payn

I don't believe in the no-win scenario
I don't think there is a single person in my gaming group who would remember the details of that one attack, let alone all the other powers on their sheet (even at 5th level). Luckily, it's all printed out for convenience.

However, that might be part of the problem. So, I don't remember my wife's phone number. She hasn't changed it in the 7 years we've been together. When I need to call her, I look her up in my Contacts. I don't remember her number because I've never needed to remember her number.

Maybe that's part of what's going on?
I dont think so. If you looked at your phone and said, "how do I call you?" and your wife tells you to use the contacts and then your reply is, "what are contacts?" its not the reliance on the smartphone that is the issue. You need a base desire to understand how phones work in general in order for them to be a hindrance to your knowledge.
 

Argyle King

Legend
I've found that D&D 4E can be easily taught to a player by using Index cards.

Have the player write their encounter and daily powers on index cards (using different colors if need be, but it's not necessary).

On the backs of the cards, write the recharge conditions for each power. "Re-charges after short rest..." or whatever.

During the encounter, play the character as if it's a hand of cards.
 


DragonLancer

Adventurer
Any game that requires a character builder to play is too complex.
This is why I am turning off of Pathfinder 1st edition. After 15 years of playing and the addition of so many official books with more and more options, I've found high level play almost impossible without Herolab to do the math. Especially if you are playing a combat character.
 

payn

I don't believe in the no-win scenario
This is why I am turning off of Pathfinder 1st edition. After 15 years of playing and the addition of so many official books with more and more options, I've found high level play almost impossible without Herolab to do the math. Especially if you are playing a combat character.
PF1 is still my go to. Its the most supported system out there and I love that. However, the mechanics can get long in the tooth by campaign end. I usually stop around level 12; if im not playing E6.
 

For the PF2 game, it's less intrusive because at least the resources are freely available. Still, if we need to level up, that's the end of the session. Stop, load up Pathbuilder, look through hundreds of options, figure out how to apply what you want on the character sheet. Then audit to make sure everyone's got the specified amount of magic items and treasure.
I'm not 100% sure, but I'm fairly certain most if not all of my players in PF2e have their next level up already planned out in Pathbuilder so when they level up, they quickly add what they get and we move on. It probably helps we don't play using milestone so they can see their exp and know when they're coming up on a level up. Do you use milestone?
 

Do you adjust their items or alter encounters afterwards to match up with the power level of the characters?

Most games of DnD I never worry what items people have, but PF2 looks like a different beast which I haven't had experience running, but if I do, this might be good to know.
I think the main thing is just making sure your players understand just how important the fundamental weapon and armor runes are if your intention is to routinely use encounters rated as severe or above. The runes have a prescribed level you should be trying to acquire them by and as long as you stick to those guidelines, you'll be fine.
 

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