Dervish Dance and Spring Attack

[Caliban]

First off, the biggest problem with the build above is that you can't dance while under the effects of a rage or frenzy (I just read that, sorry).

The Rage is just a fallback for those times when you can't dance (because you are in confined spaces, grappled, etc.).

The real reason you want at least one barbarian level is for the +10 speed increase that stacks with the dervish speed increases. Mobility is the dervishes greates strength, and losing it is their greatest weakness. If you can't complete your movement for some reason (tripped, grappled, paralyzed, etc) your dance immediately ends and you become fatigued, and you can only use one dance per combat. My character usually gets mad when he can't dance.

Now I'm currently playing a dervish and some of this debate has confused me. The way we have played it, it seems that a dervish can start a dance, run in and start slashing away then (so long as he still has movement of course) move away.

Is this format correct?

Not the way you describe it. When in the dance, you have to move at least 5 feet between each attack. So a dervice with 3 attacks can start a dance, move in, attack, move 5 feet, attack again, move 5 feet, attack a 3rd time, and then use any remaining movement as he see's fit.

And don't forget that tumbling cuts your movement in half unless you take a -10 on the tumble check.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Two things that would bother me with that build.
1. How can you multiclass barbar and monk? lawful then chaotic? (less cheeze pleeze)
2. Please tell me you haven't houseruled out the xp penalty starting at level 5.

Now i a my be rusty on the rules, but im pritty sure the build does not invoke multiclass penalties becuse they are only level 2 of each class. Maybe if one was level 4 while two other were level 2 i could see that. I have to relook to make sure though.

*edit.* phb says they must be two or more levels apart from eachother to get xp penalties. at level 5 they are still one one level apart from eachother. im just not seeing what you mean.

As far as i can tell though, a charicter doesent need to stay one alighnment for the whole game. Its easy to have a lawfull ignorent charicter and slowly realize the evils of orginized government as a move to netural becomes a natural sway of development. Its all about the roleplaying.


but this seems to be the new question...are dervishes over powerd?

well compared to what? to a fighter or a claric/druid.

If a dervish is stronger then the claric and druid, the dervish may be too strong, but if it is stronger then a fighter, are fighters not considerd a weak but nesisary class?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Take your free trip attempt (from the Cause Overreach aspect of Elusive Target)...

Does Cause Overreach count as a bonus or extra attack? If so, bear in mind that it will only work while you aren't Whirlwinding.

-Hyp.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

i dont think its an attack. I think its a free trip. Now what happens if you have improved trip? with improved trip you can get a extra attack from the trip.

*edit* i think about it some more and now i dont know, becuse a trip is a attack action. so maybe thats the downside...

I still dont see how you can 5 step and whirlwind. It says you must make a 5 foot step between attacks. Im not calling you out or anything, i just want to hear your take. What wording do you think allows for whirlwind durring a dervish dance?

 

[Caliban]

Does Cause Overreach count as a bonus or extra attack? If so, bear in mind that it will only work while you aren't Whirlwinding.

-Hyp.

It's not one of your attacks at all. It triggers when they attack you on an AoO and miss, and doesn't take one of your AoO's (I've gotten 5 trip attempts during the course of one move due to this). You get a trip attempt, but without using an attack (not attack roll involved after they miss you). That's also why Improved Trip won't give you an extra attack if you have that feat as well (although it will give you a +4 on the trip attempts). (I've thought a lot about the way the class abilities and feats interact in this build - I've been playing the character for over a year now.)

 

[Caliban]

I still dont see how you can 5 step and whirlwind. It says you must make a 5 foot step between attacks. Im not calling you out or anything, i just want to hear your take. What wording do you think allows for whirlwind durring a dervish dance?

I already told you: Whirlwind is a full attack action. Dervish Dance lets you do a full move during a full attack action.

Nothing the in the Whirlwind Attack feat specifies that you can't move, it's the fact that it's a full attack action that limits your movement. The dervish dance removes that limitation.

And yes, you do have to make (at least) a 5' step between each attack in your whirlwind. You can also move a lot more than 5' between each attack if you need to (and have the movement available).

You can have multiple opponents arrayed around the battlefield, and if you have enough movement to reach them all (haste helps) you shoot around the field like a pinball, attacking each of them once at your full bonus.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

my concern is this. I realize you can dervish dance and make full attack action. However, It says this under dervish dance.

"However the dervish must move a minmum of 5 feet between each attack."

one could see this as not allowing a dervish to whirlwind in a dervish dance becuse she must move a minimum of 5 feet per an attack. Now when they say attack, do they mean attack action? or is it a blanket statment? do you think whirlwind is an attack. Is thier any other instince were in books it says "attack" allowing a charicter to use whirlwind as an attack, when clearly they did not intend whirlwind to be used in place of the attack?

now that said i think it should be allright for a dervish to take 5 foot step and whirlwind becuse you can do that normaly but does dervish dance prevent actions other then the ones listed and prohibited on paragraph 3 of dervish dance? Is dervish like a trance that give you limited options in combat for higher combat prowless? or is it just move with broken up full attack action for x rounds with a limitation on skills that require concentration or to remain still. I think combat expertise and bardic music are probably listed to show exceptions to the rule of skills and such that require concentration or movement. I could see without these lines, a dm sayng no bardic music, so they listed the exceptions they thought dms would disalow that they felt were ok. That said i think thier are more exceptions, just the ones listed are the most common that would come up in game, basicly a pre emptive hammer to the face.

ps my keyboard is going crazy becuse of trend micro scans, so this may be hard to read post.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now when they say attack, do they mean attack action?

No, because Dervish Dance specifically references the Full Attack action, not the Attack action. They mean melee attack - like what the Whirlwind Attack feat potentially gives you lots of.

As Caliban says, Dervish Dance lets you move between attacks in a Full Attack, and Whirlwind Attack is a Full Attack.

It's not one of your attacks at all.

Isn't it, though? It lets you make a free trip attempt, and Trip is described as "You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack".

While you are taking the Whirlwind Attack full attack action, you are being granted the opportunity by a feat to make an unarmed melee attack you would not otherwise make.

That's also why Improved Trip won't give you an extra attack if you have that feat as well (although it will give you a +4 on the trip attempts).

I agree that Improved Trip won't allow a follow-up attack after an Elusive Target trip, but I think my reasoning is different from yours.

Elusive Target grants an extra melee attack, with the restriction that that melee attack can only be used to Trip.

If you're successful, Improved Trip lets you make an immediate melee attack as if you had not used that attack to trip... but because it is, essentially, 're-using' the attack Elusive Target granted, Improved Trip's immediate melee attack is also subject to the 'Trip attack only' restriction... and your target is already prone, so using Improved Trip's immediate melee attack to trip them again is pointless.

-Hyp.

 

[werk]

Now i a my be rusty on the rules, but im pritty sure the build does not invoke multiclass penalties becuse they are only level 2 of each class.

You're right, that's my bad. I see so few triple-classes that I misremembered the rule. :/

As for the class change, like you said, it's all about the roleplaying. Was this character played up through it's build, or just built cold? It seemed that you were suggesting it as a cold build, which wouldn't fly IMC.

 

[Caliban]

Isn't it, though? It lets you make a free trip attempt, and Trip is described as "You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack".

Not in this case. Normally to trip someone you first have to make an attack roll to touch them. That is the "unarmed melee attack" it's referring to. With Elusive Target, you don't make that attack roll, you just get the trip attempt that would normally follow such an attack.

You are not making a trip attack, you just get a trip attempt.

Similar to how attack is not an action by itself, but something you can use the Attack Action to do (otherwise you couldn't make an AoO).

Elusive Target grants an extra melee attack, with the restriction that that melee attack can only be used to Trip.

Where is your attack roll if it's an unarmed melee attack?