Design approachs.

triqui

Adventurer
I think the interesting thing is how D&D embodies to different degrees both subtractive and additive design. The "core" is subject to subtractive design, but once this core is developed, different (subtractively designed?) fields are then added to the overall game, expanding it (as we saw with the complete series in 3e and certain elements of 4e where the original scope or boundaries of the design were expanded). Depending upon the efficiency of the core determines how elegant the overall structure will be. I think it fair to say that 3e suffered a little in this regard while 4e as a design is a little more resilient (although both in terms of efficient design are quite elegant in my opinion).

I find none of those (3e or 4e) are good examples of subtractive design. The difference among them is Modular Design vs Exception Based design, not simplicity. IE: 3e was not substractive from 2e at all. It added a ton of things, and removed none. Replaced a few -like old odd Breath Weapons, Magic, Death, etc saving throws for Fortitude, Reflex, Will-, but did not take away anything. They made the rules more Consistent (ie: you no longer need to roll high to attack, but low to save, use 1d20 for skills like non-weapon proficiency but 1d100 for other skills, like Move Silently), but no simpler. Quite the opposite, it's more complex (although better)

4e did kill a few sacred cows, but their goal was not further simplicity, but, mostly, game balance. It also added quite a bunch of mechanics (healing surges, for example), whenever the developers felt they should do so for balance, so subtracting wasn't their goal either.

One could argue that Essentials is a Subtractive design from 4e, however.
 

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RSKennan

Explorer
Well here's a question then; would the goal of writing a universal game with as few powerful rules as possible without sacrificing functionality be considered subtractive design?

I would think so, but you seem to have a very narrow definition from the same article.

The iPhone is an example that keeps coming up- with its one true button and the rest of its touch interface, it's more powerful than most of its competition.

There's simplicity and elegance, and there's oversimplification. My read of the article seems to say that subtractive design is about the former, not the latter. Simplification can't be the prime goal- it has to be informed by the needs of the design.

Edit: The article seems to be more about E = mc2 than 2+2=4. I can't get the exponent to work in this format, but you get my drift.
 
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triqui

Adventurer
Well here's a question then; would the goal of writing a universal game with as few powerful rules as possible without sacrificing functionality be considered subtractive design?

I would think so, but you seem to have a very narrow definition from the same article.
Yes, if the bolded part is the goal. But making one system to solve both in and out of combat stuff *might* be this, or might not. For example, if you add "mental hit points" for social interaction, and solve social challenge as combat, you are being Consistent, but you are not symplifying things (quite the opposite, you are adding something -hp for social challenges-). Thus, a system like this can be Consistent without being Subtractive


The iPhone is an example that keeps coming up- with its one true button and the rest of its touch interface, it's more powerful than most of its competition.

There's simplicity and elegance, and there's oversimplification. My read of the article seems to say that subtractive design is about the former, not the latter. Simplification can't be the prime goal- it has to be informed by the needs of the design.
Simplification IS a goal by itself in most Apple products. Not only talking about user friendly interface here, but inner design too. That's why they often end not having flash support, USB socket, multitasking or some other things that would *add* features, but would *remove* simplification. While other brands go by the "ok, let's see how we can addapt our design to make room for USB, or enough battery to run Flash", Apple goes the other route: "do we REALLY need our product to run Flash to be a good product? If the answer is not, screw flash. Do we REALLY need iPad to have a USB? If the answer is not, screw USB"

Apple (or Steve Jobs, for that matter) is really good at doing this. For example, the first iMac, back in the 90s, did not come with a floppy disk. That was shocking by the standards of that age. Removing the floppy did not "add" anything (but simplicity). Adding it would hurt nothing (but simplicity). Yet no one but Apple did it before, becouse they did not approach the development with Subtractive Design in mind. They built computers thinking "what else can I add" instead of thinking "let's see how much can I remove". And Apple was right. Floppy disks were useless
 
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steenan

Adventurer
I'll try to answer directly to OP's questions.

First thing to note is that you accidentally mixed two different things, because of similar naming. There are two different things named "design".

There is "design" in the sense of "structure", "organization". That's what one means when talking of "modular design", "streamlined design", "exception-based design" etc. There is also "design" meaning "methodology", "design process", "approach to creating something". What the article described is "design" in this sense, as is "iterative design", for example.


I'm not sure what meaning of design you're interested in, so I'll write a little on both.


No matter what design methodology is used, the most important thing is a clear goal. When designing an RPG game, it's good to know:
- Who the target group is? Who will play the game?
- How is it to be played?
- What kind of experience is it to produce? What it is about, really?
When the goal is known, all parts of the game may be investigated in correct context. The designers may ask themselves:
- What in this game makes it better in achieving our goal than other games in the market?
- How every part of the game empowers what it is about? How it produces the intended experience? How it helps and encourages players to play in the intended way?
- Are there any parts that go against the goal? Are there any that miss the target and water the game down?

The last question is what the article talks about. One may put a lot of things in a game - and increasing number of options seems a great thing at first sight. But it really helps the game if it is focused. Decide what the goal is and prune all that does not help in achieving it.
That's what indie game designers have been doing for years now. The games are focused - and that makes them much shorter, easier to learn and more powerful in delivering the experience than extensive, generic RPGs. Also, they rarely suffer from "sacred cows" and decades-old design artifacts that plague more mainstream RPGs like WoD, D&D etc.

The problematic part is finding what the goal is and putting it in clear words. I saw a lot of games that were doomed to failure from the first day. Their common feature was that they all used "Power 19" or similar questionnaire approach for detailing the design goals - but the answers given were extremely vague. In general, if a "mission statement" for a game contains such buzzwords as "adventurers", "realism" or "fun" (that get used a lot, but nobody really knows what they mean), it leads to nowhere.

The best way of finding what one really wants from a game is playing it. Think for a moment about what you want, throw together a game in few hours (take a system from a game you know, describe the setting and style in two pages of text), get some players and play it. See what you like and what you don't, see where it diverges from your vision and where it hits the target you couldn't even put in words before. Add some pieces, remove some, repeat the process. Don't spend weeks detailing the game world or the mechanics until your vision and design goal are crystal clear.
What I suggest here is an analog of "agile development" in software engineering. Keep it changing until you get what you really want. Don't get too attached to any ideas, because you may find better solutions later on. Don't give your game a structure that will make future changes difficult.


Now let's move to the other meaning of "design". There are several documents and wikis available on the net that list common RPG design patterns, so I won't list all those I remember. Instead, I'll write about a few things that I find really important.

1. Transparent design.
Giving not only rules, but also explanations of why they are there and what is their intended use. It makes the game much more intuitive in use and allows for rulings that are true to the game's spirit instead of being arbitrary. Also, explaining designer intent makes it clear which rules or setting aspects may be modified without problems and which cannot without a lot of unintended consequences.

2. Resolution scalability.
In other words, allowing players to decide what level of (mechanical) detail they want to have in resolution of given situation and giving rules to use it consistently in game, without any need for handwaving. Burning Wheel is a good example - you may resolve a combat at three levels of detail, from a single roll to a tactical approach with action scripts, maneuvers etc.

3. Well-defined abstraction
Every game will use abstractions, there is no way of avoiding that. But the game needs to be clear about what is abstracted and what is not. Doing it well really help player creativity and initiative; doing it wrong leads to a lot of interpretative issues and conflicts at the table. Of course, even worse than not defining boundaries of abstraction is defining them and then contradicting it in the rules.
A few examples:
- HPs abstracted as "you don't really get hit until they are gone, and then a single hit drops you" are fine. Having "cure wounds" spell that restores HP and injury poisons that affect you when you're at positive HP breaks it.
- Movement abstracted to positions on grid is fine. Movement abstracted to purely narrative one is as good. Grid-based movement that disallows sensible actions because characters fill entire grid squares, or narrative one that precisely measures combat speed, are asking for troubles.
- Delegating all inter-character social interactions to freeform roleplaying is fine. Abstract social conflict system with negotiable stakes, or some kind of personality model that makes important matters safe while allowing others to be affected and changed by interactions is fine, too. Social mechanics that is so vague that GM's interpretation makes it either useless or overpowered is not.

4. System tied to imagined world
This one is closely connected with the previous one. It is possible (and, unfortunately, quite frequent) to design abstracted system in such a way that only mechanical decisions affect anything, while whatever happens in fiction is reduced to "flavor text". It turns an RPG into a board game. To design a good RPG one needs to remember that the mechanics (no matter how tactical, balanced and fun) is there to resolve situations in the fiction and must be shaped by them.
A good example of this piece of design is Dogs in the Vineyard. Mechanics is extremely abstract, just bidding match with dice. What makes it fun is that not only the final result of a conflict matters in fiction, but every single action may be significant. It also brings us back to point 1: without the authorial explanation of how the game is intended to be played, it would easily devolve into empty dice rolling.
 
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Would you differentiate between the terms streamlined and elegance in terms of design? For me streamlining is a subtractive process that focuses on simplification of a design. Elegance then becomes a measure of how well the simplfied design imitates the functions of its former structure; the more elegant, the more identical the functionality but with the benefit of simplicity and less redundancy.

In my own useage of the term I do not. When we set out to make a game, and I say let's streamline, I mean reduce/simplify for efficiency and elegance. However I guess where I diverge from the article is I think the overall goal shouldn't be to remove, but to achieve an efficient and workable design. I can see it becoming reductionism for reductionism's sake. At a certain point you have to be creating things as well.
 

I find none of those (3e or 4e) are good examples of subtractive design. The difference among them is Modular Design vs Exception Based design, not simplicity. IE: 3e was not substractive from 2e at all. It added a ton of things, and removed none. Replaced a few -like old odd Breath Weapons, Magic, Death, etc saving throws for Fortitude, Reflex, Will-, but did not take away anything. They made the rules more Consistent (ie: you no longer need to roll high to attack, but low to save, use 1d20 for skills like non-weapon proficiency but 1d100 for other skills, like Move Silently), but no simpler. Quite the opposite, it's more complex (although better)

INterestingly I just started a campaign of 2e after years of 3e. I think 3e certainly added a lot. But it made core mechanics more efficient by removing rolls and bringing them under the d20 roll umbrella (as you point out). I would say they made those core aspects of the game simpler. So I would call that a kind of subtraction. Many mechanics that existed as separate things were brought into the skill system for example. So you no longer percentage rolls for climbing, a d10 roll for surprise, a d10 for initiative, an ability roll for non weapon proficiencies, etc. As they did this though, which you point out, they added a lot of material. It was almost like they simplified, and then built on their own simplifications to create new more efficient subsystems.
 

triqui

Adventurer
I would say they made those core aspects of the game simpler. So I would call that a kind of subtraction. Many mechanics that existed as separate things were brought into the skill system for example. So you no longer percentage rolls for climbing, a d10 roll for surprise, a d10 for initiative, an ability roll for non weapon proficiencies, etc.

It's a minor nitpick and a matter of terminology, but those weren't, imho, Subtractions. While I could see them as streamlining the system, they did so through Consistency. They replaced things, but did not subtract (ie: remove) anything from the game. Climb is still there, just the mechanic is different.

Subtractive design would be something like "do we really need classes?" and then proceed to build a classless system. It might end being simple and elegant, or not. Maybe they replace classes with a clunky and tedious system of point-buy, which end not being elegant at all. But the approach would had been Subtractive.

Similarly, changing Thac0 for Base Attack Bonus is not a subtractive design. Removing the to hit roll, as I once read in this blog would be Subtractive Design

And yes, that means sometimes Subtractive design is not the right approach. There are a ton of platform games outhere that are as good, or better, than Ico. However, it's a different approach. Kind of "game development minimalism" And it never hurts to have *yet another* tool in the box :)
 

RSKennan

Explorer
In my own useage of the term I do not. When we set out to make a game, and I say let's streamline, I mean reduce/simplify for efficiency and elegance.

I think this is what the article is in fact saying.

Topic Paragraph said:
Subtractive design is the process of removing imperfections and extraneous parts in order to strengthen the core elements. You can think of a design as something you build up, construct and let grow, but it&#8217s pruning away the excess that gives a design a sense of simplicity, elegance, and power.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." &#8212Albert Einstein

However I guess where I diverge from the article is I think the overall goal shouldn't be to remove, but to achieve an efficient and workable design.

I think this is what the article is actually about.

The Article said:
Subtractive design is not all rainbows and puppies though. By fully committing to this idea, you are more likely to encounter resistance on your game development team, with your publisher, and with your players. The reason is that when we use vague language, it&#8217s easier to get an agreement. When we use very honest, precise language, it&#8217s easier for someone to realize that they disagreed all along.

&#8220Some amount of collateral damage is expected in the mission.&#8221 Sure, ok.
&#8220We are going to kill innocent people on this mission.&#8221 Wait, really?

When we distill a design down to the core concepts and remove the extraneous, it forces us to admit and agree what the core concepts actually are.

Based on my read, Subtractive design is about removing obfuscation in the form of extraneous information more than mere simplification. Elegant and powerful rules do that. Simple ones don't necessarily. I think that you can have a complex game created via Subtractive design which has no redundancy or confusing rules, or a simple one that doesn't. Therefore, I don't think simplicity is the goal. I think clarity is. Simplicity is in service to that clarity. With a clear, elegant game, it's easier to achieve the play experiences you're looking for. Simple alone, not so much.
 
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Jhaelen

First Post
Sirlin is brilliant! He's written an excellent series of articles called "Playing to win". That was a real eye-opener for me.
Well here's a question then; would the goal of writing a universal game with as few powerful rules as possible without sacrificing functionality be considered subtractive design?
That game already exists, though. It's called Nomic ;)

(While trying to recall the name of this game and feeding search terms to google, I found the following intriguing page first (which includes a mention of Nomic): Lemma, a rule-making meta-game)
 

RSKennan

Explorer
Let me know how your Nomic campaign goes. ;D

Seriously, though it could be a fun RPG experiment. Not my thing, but it might be fun to work out an RPG analogue.

My friends and I used to play a game called "Spork" that worked similarly. It was a physical sportlike game played on a basketball court. Our tools were kick balls and these nerf sparring boffers with foam tips. Over time the rules developed such that the goal was to keep the ball in the air as long as possible, and possibly go for the opponent's basket. New rules were invented as they came up, things like stealing the ball, a run of however many bounces off the boffers being a point, etc.

This kind of thing is fun, but not what I'm doing with my game. In fact in my game, there are no mutable rules, and houseruling is considered cheating. It's not what the rules do that's the domain for creativity, it's how you use them. I guess you could say I tried to Subtract rule 0.

(I know I'll probably get flamed over that last part, but it's just a game, and an experimental one at that.)
 

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