Design & Dev: Monsters (DRAGONS!)

[BryonD]

Maybe someone already pointed this out.

It doesn't appear that the dragon actually gets 2 standard actions. It appears that he can once or more use an ability to gain an extra standard action.

 

[The_Universe]

We don't know yet.

Ha! OK. Just making sure I hadn't missed it.

In any case, I hope they're still in in some form or another.

 

[Jhaelen]

Nope, there is this monster in Monsters of Faerun that casts Magic Missile as 9 level sorcerer or something. I had a swarm of, like 64 of them IIRC, resulting in CR 21 (it was cr 7 I believe and each doubling adds +2 to CR).

Ah, not really. Doubling the numbers to get an EL +2 doesn't work infinitely. It works up to and until you get an EL that is 8 higher than the CR of the composite creatures. Take a look at the XP charts.
Using more than 16 monsters of a kind doesn't really increase the threat any further.

 

[Szatany]

Ah, not really. Doubling the numbers to get an EL +2 doesn't work infinitely. It works up to and until you get an EL that is 8 higher than the CR of the composite creatures. Take a look at the XP charts.
Using more than 16 monsters of a kind doesn't really increase the threat any further.

Not only it did, in this case, but it made the enemy almost unbeatable. The joy of magic missile

 

[Baby Samurai]

On BAB for classes in 4th edition:


I have a feeling Rogues will now have full BAB, and that they will scrap 1/2 BAB.

This also relates to my belief that Touch AC will go bye bye, so wizards will not be screwed, as they now have the same BAB as a cleric etc.

 

[Shade]

The actual creature in question is the Bonacon (described by Pliny)

Thank you! Now I can sleep at night again.

 

[Yair]

I just don't see how renaming Standard Actions to Main Action and Move Action to Secondary Action will change things. It's a change in terminology granted but that's it.

Yep. It's the terminology I'm bitching about.

 

[Scribble]

Analyzing The Dragon Fight...

So I reread the Dragon fight again, trying to pay particular attention to everything that was said about each action, as well as how it was said, and how it compared to similar actions performed later...

Here’s just a taste of what a fight against an ancient dragon might feel like

They never mention what color dragon... We're assuming red right? But they never say... Important?

* On the dragon’s turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feet—a free action. Then, with a standard action, it slashes out at the fighter and the cleric with its two front claws (even though they’re both 20 feet away). As another free action, it uses its tail to slap the rogue, who was trying to sneak up behind it, and pushes her back 10 feet. It’s getting angry at the wizard, so it uses a special ability to take another standard action: it spits a ball of fire at the wizard, setting him on fire. It has a move action left, which it uses to fly into a better position for its breath weapon. That ends the dragon’s turn.

So far, it seems like we will have 3 action types.

They are:

• Free Action
• Standard Action
• Move Action

Free Action- It would appear that 4e makes free actions more powerful then 3.5...
The Dragon does damage with it's free action.

(Perhaps simulating that the fire burst happens WHILE it also attacks? (My guess is that as you increase in power, your ability to perform certain things as free actions grows...)

Standard Action- Seems to work slightly different then in 3.5 The dragon makes multiple attacks as a single standard action. (Perhaps "combos" count as a single action? Or while you still get iterative attacks, they only count as one action...)

Move Action Seems relatively unchanged...

Appears that something possibly similar to AOOs is in effect... The Dragon got to use it's tail to slap the Rogue away. But this AOO uses what appears to be a specialized dragon form of Bull Rush...

Also uses a special ability that allows it to have another standard action... I wonder if it could have done that claw/claw routine we saw earlier? (Important to note, it didn't use a spell. It used a special ability...)

Also, Dragons appear to still have Breath weapons.

It’s the fighter’s turn. He charges the dragon and manages to land a solid blow, dropping the dragon down below half its hit points. Oh—that gives the dragon the opportunity use its breath weapon as an immediate action. A huge cone of fire bursts from the dragon’s mouth, engulfing all four PCs. But at least the dragon is below 500 hit points!

Charge appears to be an option still. (Although perhaps the mechanics are different, or it was simply a description...)

They never mention anything about damage reduction. (Perhaps they failed to mention it?)

Another action type:

Immediate Action- So we still have immediate actions.

Triggering actions... When the dragon got to a point, x happened... I wonder if characters have these?

Now the rogue moves around to flank with the fighter. Ordinarily, that would let the dragon use its tail slap again as an immediate action, but the dragon has used its immediate action already. That’s lucky for the rogue, who actually gets to make an attack this round! Unfortunately, she fails to hit the dragon’s AC of 49.

Again another sign that some sort of AOO is in effect... As the Rogue moves, it provokes a tail slap... But it never says "provokes" it simply says "would let."

(Perhaps You choose when to use the immediate action... Maybe you can only use it as a response to something else, however, to prevent it from simply being another attack... This would sort of eliminate the need for knowing what provokes an AOO... It simply happens when the person thinks it should.)

Also indicates that Immediate actions "seem" to work similar to 3.5... You only get one per round, but they can be used at any time in the round...

Also seems to indicate the rogue only has one attack...

The Dragon's AC is higher off the bat then in 3.5 This might be due to other factors... But I don't know...

The wizard fails to put out the fire, so he takes more damage. Worse yet, the dragon’s breath scoured away the wizard’s fire resistance, so he takes the full amount. He blasts the dragon with a ray of freezing cold, but this isn’t 3rd Edition. The dragon takes normal damage, but it’s not enough to slow it down.

We know:

Fire Resistance can be "scoured away..." Perhaps energy resistance isn't permanent in 4e? Perhaps it works more like stoneskin? Perhaps this indicates Breath weapons do more then just a lot of damage? (They mentioned fireballs no longer being multiple d6s... perhaps the same is true for all "mega" attacks...)

The Wizard never makes a concentration check... (Perhaps they just didn't mention it?)

There seems to be no spell resistance... (Perhaps they failed to mention it?)

No longer has a vulnerability to cold...

Finally, the cleric is up. Calling on the power of her god, she swings her halberd at the dragon—a critical hit! The damage isn’t bad, but even better, the wizard gets a nice surge of healing power.

Was "calling on the power of her god" just flair? Or was that indicating the use of some sort of power or ability?

Did the healing come because of the crit? They never mention the crit doing extra damage... (Maybe the cleric used the heal instead of getting extra damage?)

He’s going to need it—it’s the dragon’s turn again.

The Dragon attacked a heck of a lot in that one round... Did more damage when it WASN'T it's turn it seemed...

Also... The Dragon never spoke... Maybe just a minor point, and he didn't speak because he didn't have to... But just in the way it acted made me feel like they are making Dragons more animalistic in nature?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Uh ...

 

[occam]

Hmmm... Dragons with over 1,000 HP. I still hope the CR for the mightiest ones don't exceed ~24. I don't want generic dragons being able to compete 1-on-1 with Demon Lords and the like...

Who says demon lords will have CRs (or the equivalent) in the 20s?