Design & Dev: Monsters (DRAGONS!)

[Beastman]

I also have mixed feelings with this combat example. On one hand it reads spectacular, on the other it seems that combat becomes more complicated.

As I read it correctly, the dragon has free actions, two standard actions, one move action and one immediate action per round. The whole combat looks very dynamic but I fear at the cost of simplicity.

So do immediate actions replace AOO or are they in addition to them? If in addition, the whole thing will become even more complicated and unmanageable.

Furthermore, I especially do not like the mentioning of the cleric hitting the dragon and at the same time healing the wizard because of a successful attack *bah*. This has something of japanese console-RPGs to me, not quite what I like...guys running around with spiked hair, swinging swords four-times the length of their own height...

So, guess I will wait for some more examples for clarifications...

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

What is most interesting to me is what this potentially reveals about the revisions to the combat action system. Now, we don't know all the details, certainly, but to me this implies:

- Standard actions remain for single attacks or other complex non-move actions

- Move actions remain

- Free actions appear to encompass anything that occurs on your turn than takes lesss time than a standard/move action (implies: free action killed swift action and took his stuff. Good riddance, swift action).

- Immediate actions appear to be an expanded category that allow actions to take place outside your turn in response to something someone else does. So they encompass attacks of opportunity (which can now include spell like ability, supernatural ability, immediate action-length spells, etc beyond simple melee attacks), as well as actions like casting feather fall and other spells that have acasting time of "immediate action"

- Full attack & full round actions are unknown as they aren't referenced, although reading in between the lines on the dragon's attack I'd interpret that full attack actions are gone; multiple attacks are some sort of special ability that occur within a standard action. But that's pure speculation.

If my guess is right, it's a good simplification of the combat system reducing it to four actions from the current number (six? seven?).

 

[DaveMage]

Cool! Luckily, we have LOTS of other threads outside of the 4e forum.

(Which is my way of saying that people who aren't interested in 4e will probably have less fun on the boards if they hang out in the 4e forum.)

Sorry for the hijack -- back to monsters!

I'm a hybrid, myself. I'm sticking with 3.5, but I'm certainly interested in any changes in 4e that I can port to my 3.5 game.

For this article, the combat complexity doesn't seem any less, but it does seem different. I'm not a fan of the cleric healing it's friends by taking an attack action (huh?). However, I like the idea of the cleric's healing being an *immediate* action that could be taken 1/round. That's something I can port immediately into my 3.5 game and I think that's pretty cool.

 

[Shadeydm]

While this article is an example of only a single battle, (and probably a fairly high level one at that) and as such should probably be taken with a grain of salt. However, I can't help but wonder how exactly the DMs job has been made any easier from this example (which I believe was a stated design goal). That dragon sounds like a PitA to run to me.

 

[Baby Samurai]

not quite what I like...guys running around with spiked hair, swinging swords four-times the length of their own height...

...But if I recall I don't think they made mention of Cloud or what have you…

 

[AGFlynn]

This looks like it might make combat even faster in real time, which makes me very leery of the changes. One thing we've noticed in 3.5 is that massive, sprawling combats often take hours and hours of game time. Then we look at the number of rounds actually played in game to find "Oh, that huge battle that nearly destroyed town X? That was actually over in less than a minute."
We also have a lot of three- or four-round combats that take a good deal of time to wade through in gaming time and it seems a letdown afterwards to realize it all went down in 24 seconds.
I sure hope 4e deals with that disconnect. It's a minor issue, but it takes some of the fun out of a big brawl.

 

[satori01]

However, I can't help but wonder how exactly the DMs job has been made any easier from this example (which I believe was a stated design goal). That dragon sounds like a PitA to run to me.

Clearly we need more data, but one of the common problems cited with monsters with alot of powers & options is it can lead to information overload on the part of the DM when trying to weigh those options in the thick of the moment.

I myself have had such a dilemma when running a Titan (hmm do I use Meteor Swarm or do I full attack?), it often leaves the DM wondering either if a more flavorful ability could have been used, or it he or she underplayed the monster.

As Plane Sailing mentioned, breath weapons for dragons now in 3.5 are generally used on the first round, (modified w/ breath weapon feats), and then relegated to the background as the Full Attack or spell casting abilities of the creature are the most effective way to deal damage.

My reading of the example implies to me the Dragon has been focused on being a combat brute. The tail sweep would appear to be a situational ability.....sure the DM has to monitor
when the triggering condition is met, but this is little different than AoO now. The key thing is it takes what is in general a subpar ability, (tail slap damage is pretty poor), an takes it off the list options for DM....No more "The players are looking at me, what do I do what do I do
Full Attack? Spell? Breath Weapon? Spoil Water? Tail Slap? Crush? umm, umm, tail slap.

Triggered situational abilities like getting an extra use when brought to half hit points do not seem that hard to run either, on the piece of paper where you track the HP of the monster write down the half hit point #, circle it, and leave a note to do X when you hit that number.

 

[Baby Samurai]

One thing we've noticed in 3.5 is that massive, sprawling combats often take hours and hours of game time. Then we look at the number of rounds actually played in game to find "Oh, that huge battle that nearly destroyed town X? That was actually over in less than a minute."
We also have a lot of three- or four-round combats that take a good deal of time to wade through in gaming time and it seems a letdown afterwards to realize it all went down in 24 seconds.
I sure hope 4e deals with that disconnect. It's a minor issue, but it takes some of the fun out of a big brawl.

I totally know what you mean – the players in my Planescape campaign have looked at me after a massive throw down with an expression of "Wow, I can't believe we made it, that battle was epic!" , only for me to tell them that the actual battle was 24 seconds…

…Odd.

 

[AGFlynn]

Because of the ridiculous nose spike, dragons can't chew bubblegum. They can only kick ass. How many abilities did that dragon use in one round? That is insane. It seems like a lot of Draconomicon is being incorporated into Core. The old Clinging Breath on the secondary Fireball breath weapon.
Free action Breath Weapon. Free Action Tail Slap in response to the rogue, new AoO? Special Ability to take a standard action to toast the wizard with the Clinging Fireball. 20' reach to standard action attack Ftr and Clr. Immediate action to Breath Weapon in response to a charge, AoO?

Well, I never thought I'd see such bigotry on these boards. Youse guys are just a lousy bunch of nose-spikists.

 

[The Souljourner]

This looks like it might make combat even faster in real time, which makes me very leery of the changes. One thing we've noticed in 3.5 is that massive, sprawling combats often take hours and hours of game time. Then we look at the number of rounds actually played in game to find "Oh, that huge battle that nearly destroyed town X? That was actually over in less than a minute."
We also have a lot of three- or four-round combats that take a good deal of time to wade through in gaming time and it seems a letdown afterwards to realize it all went down in 24 seconds.
I sure hope 4e deals with that disconnect. It's a minor issue, but it takes some of the fun out of a big brawl.

Wait, I don't understand. If combats take too long now, and this will speed them up, why does it make you leery? Isn't it exactly addressing the problem you've had with 3.x?

I know I'd really love to be able to get more than one fight done in an hour and a half.... and that at 4th level. I can't imagine what it would be like at higher levels.

-Nate